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Old 04-16-2012, 08:57 PM   #15
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Yep, that's too much tailer for your tow vehicle.
I wish I could say I could trust my wife not to be a packrat, but after 30 years I know better.

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Wild a** guess.
Should have known...

Quote:
$41,860 2012 F-350 DRW SuperCab 4x2, 6.7L diesel, 3.73 axle, DRW
In California, I was looking forward to those air conditoned leather seats - never had that before. In Montana - those seat heaters were great on cold mornings on stiff back. But I definitely have to have 4WD for Montana - a half mile of icy gravel to get to the main road, a mile of icy road back into my buddy's ranch to check my horses. Snow tires and 4WD and even studs some years in the Rockies...

Except for the seat heaters, I sort of prefer cloth because of dirt and dogs so...

One more question - can you improve your chances with a rear axle upgrade to 4.1 plus a tire upgrade or just throwing good money after bad?

The funny thing is - you can't imagine how many fat nanny goats I have pulled in my stock trailer and a rodeo stock handler pulls a long trailer and around 24000 lbs of bulls with the same exact truck I have.

My truck is almost too fancy anyway but it was one of those once in a lifetime deals...

Quote:
18,750 trailer plus 9,000 dually tow vehicle = 27,750 = minimum GCWR required to tow that trailer the third time you move it from one job to another.
A more reasonable question would be what would you prefer if you were going to tow this behemoth a LOT the next two to three years? The speed and acceleration of DRW F350 when not towing or the heft of an F450 - those mountains can be a little too interesting on some of the steep downgrades. Already making arrangements with my buddy to upgrade the tires on the trailer before the big trip east.

Thanks again for taking the time.

Kris
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:40 AM   #16
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In California, I was looking forward to those air conditoned leather seats - never had that before. In Montana - those seat heaters were great on cold mornings on stiff back.
Heated/cooled seats are nor available with XL or XLT trim. They are optional with Lariat trim and standard with King Ranch trim. So you just raised the price of the truck way up there.

Quote:
But I definitely have to have 4WD for Montana -
Add about $4,000 to the up-front cost of the truck, about 400 pounds to the weight of the truck, slightly reduced MPG, and slightly increased cost of maintenance - mainly for the front end hubs and ball joints maintenance/replacement. But if you gotta have 4x4, it's available.

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One more question - can you improve your chances with a rear axle upgrade to 4.1 plus a tire upgrade or just throwing good money after bad?
4.10 axle ratio not available on 2012 SuperDuty diesel. On the F-350 DRW you get 3.73, period, with LS optional. And of course you'd want the optional LS. But the 6.7 diesel has a lot more HP and torque than earlier models, so the 3,73 gives better performance than the 4.10 did in earlier DRWs. On the F-450 pickup you get 4.30 LS, period.

Stock tires have A/S tread. AT tread is optional and expensive, but many owners replace the A/T tires soon after the first snow/ice storm. So I'd order the stock tires and if they aren't good winter tires then replace them with your choice of Blizzacks or whatever.

Quote:
The funny thing is - you can't imagine how many fat nanny goats I have pulled in my stock trailer and a rodeo stock handler pulls a long trailer and around 24000 lbs of bulls with the same exact truck I have.
The Powerstroke, and especially the 400-HP 6.7 Powerstroke, will pull a mountain. But it's not safe to be overloaded over Ford's weight limits. Plus, if you ever get in an accident and hurt or kill someone while overloaded, the lawyers will be certain you can never afford a nice truck and RV trailer again.

Quote:
My truck is almost too fancy anyway but it was one of those once in a lifetime deals...
Lariats and King Ranches are wonderful, if you can afford one. Darling Wife decided that this time she wanted leather seats and reverse camera and reverse sensing, so that's what we ordered. She was surprised when she talked to someone on her I-Phone and the conversation came out of the radio speakers because of the Sync/bluetooth.

Quote:
A more reasonable question would be what would you prefer if you were going to tow this behemoth a LOT the next two to three years? The speed and acceleration of DRW F350 when not towing or the heft of an F450 - those mountains can be a little too interesting on some of the steep downgrades.
There is very little difference between the F-350 DRW and the F-450 pickup. Mainly the rear axle ratio and the front suspension that allows the F-450 to turn sharper. GVWR is almost the same. There is no difference in "heft". But because of the different rear axle ratios, if I lived in the Rockies of Montana I'd prefer the F-450 pickup.

However, there is another choice if you're willing to do some homework. A real F-450 with 19.5" real truck truck tires, bigger brakes, stronger frame, and more GVWR. Start with an F-450 chassis cab of your choice, with 60" CA and the trim of your choice up through Lariat Plus. Order the high capacity tow pkg which includes 4.30 LS axle and 30k GCWR. Then have your dealer order your choice of tow body from a "ship thru upfitter". There will be no additional freight charges, but tow bodies ain't cheap. The one I'd want is about $10,000! But you could opt for a plain flatbed for around $5,000, or add under side boxes and for a bit more.

Click on the following link to see a list of sources for beds and tow bodies for chassis cab trucks.
Beds and Tow Bodies for Chassis Cab Trucks - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com

Let's see if this will work:






Yep. Seems to work to show you a Utility Bodywerks tow body on a chassis cab truck. Click on the photo to get a closeup so you can better see the 5er hitch.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:05 AM   #17
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I tried tried to edit the above post to add the following, but time ran out while I was writing. So I'll add it here.

I went to
Build Your 2012 Ford Chassis Cab

And went hog wild to build you the tow vehicle you really want.

$56,710 2012 F-450 chassis cab Lariat CrewCab diesel 4x4 with high capacity tow pkg which includes 4.30 LS axle. Includes ITBC, ESOF, PowerScope TT mirrors, remote start, Sirius and Sync.
$995 Lariat Interior pkg, which includes hot and cold seats
$75 engine block heater
$995 Freight
($1000) rebate
-----------
$57,775 MSRP after rebate
($5,777) negotiated 10% discount
---------
$51,998 cash buying price before tow body
=====

So if you choose a $10,000 tow body with 5er hitch, that's $62,000 plus TT&L.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:19 AM   #18
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I like it! Especially the tighter steering, higher axle ratio, and higher GCWR. Thanks again. I'll let you know what I decide to do. If you ever visit NW Montana and need a place to plug in, we are putting in a pad with sewer and electric service on our little ranch. Should be ready late summer. You are more than welcome.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:46 AM   #19
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We have friends in Spokane that we visit periodically. One visit dragging a 25' 5er with a PowerStroke we took I-90 across the Rockies in Montana. We plan to do it again later in the summer, but this time with an F-150 EcoBoost dragging a 20' TT. So maybe we'll look you up if you're not too far off I-90.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:56 AM   #20
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I went to Ford with my VIN number. They told me exactly how much I can tow with my Ford F150. I see a lot of advise and opinions, but the manufacture should be able to give you the needed info with the "as built" for your truck.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:06 AM   #21
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I went to Ford with my VIN number. They told me exactly how much I can tow with my Ford F150. I see a lot of advise and opinions, but the manufacture should be able to give you the needed info with the "as built" for your truck.
But Ford does not know how much added weiight you have in passengers, tool boxes, hitch, etc. Their tow rating is based on no passengers, or extra gear. You still need to weigh the truck and work out the numbers for yourself.

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Old 04-17-2012, 11:15 AM   #22
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Manufacturer trailer tow ratings (Ford's or anyone else's) are based on a base model truck (no options or accessories) with only a 150 lb driver. As Ken said, any additional weight for the hitch, passengers, cargo, options, etc. must be deducted from the manufacturer's trailer tow rating which is calculated as GCWR - (manufacturer's base truck curb weight + 150 lb driver). Notice that this manufacturer's trailer tow rating totally ignores the vehicle's GVWR and GAWR ratings. That's why you really need to run the numbers (ALL of them) for yourself.

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Old 04-17-2012, 04:17 PM   #23
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..., but the manufacture should be able to give you the needed info with the "as built" for your truck.
As Ken said, they can't.

For example on my '99.5 F-250 CrewCab 4x2 longbed diesel, Ford said I could tow a 5er with max trailer weight over 13,000 pounds. But when I loaded my 5er and took off cross country to New York, the CAT scale showed my 5er grossed only 8,000 pounds, and yet I was over the GVWR of my truck by over 800 pounds. What happened? Ford said over 13,000 pounds 5er tow rating, and yet 8,000 pounds 5er overloaded my truck?

If you read the fine print about the tow rating, you'll notice the blurb "NEVER exceed either the GCWR or the GVWR of the tow vehicle." The tow rating assumed my wet and loaded truck weighed less than 7,000 pounds. But it actually weighed 8,000 pounds before I tied onto the 5er. I was 4,000 pounds under the 20k GCWR of the truck, but 800 pounds over the 8,800 pounds GVWR.

On my 2012 F-150, Ford says I can tow a trailer weighing up to 8,400 pounds. But with my TT that can weigh no more than 5,600 pounds, I have to be really carefuly of the weight in the trailer to keep from exceeding the GVWR of the F-150. Why? Ford assumed there was nothing in the truck but a skinny driver, and no options or aftermarket mods. Plus for computing the tow rating they used only the GCWR of the truck and ignored the GVWR. But my F-150 has a 200-pound topper and probably at least another 100 pounds in spray-in bedliner, plus a toolbox full of tools, Darling Wife, Sugar the Bordie Collie and Sandy the Pomeranian. Another factor is my TT has a hitch weight of about 15 percent while most have hitch weight closer to 12 percent.

Bottom line? Forget Ford's estimated numbers such as tow rating and payload rating. Load the truck the way you will actually drive it, including passengers, pets, cargo such as tools and jacks, options, trailer hitch, and a full tank of fuel. Go to a truckstop with a CAT scale and fill up with fuel, then weigh the wet and loaded tow vehicle. Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded truck from the GVWR to get max hitch weight. Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded truck from the GCWR to get max trailer weight if GVWR is not your limiter.

Divide the max hitch weight by 12 percent to get the approximate max weight of a TT, or by 17 percent to get the approximate max weight of a 5er you can tow without exceeding the GVWR of the tow vehicle.

12% and 17% hitch weight will usually be fairly accurate to estimate max trailer weight. But if you want to be sure, then use 15% for a TT and 24% for a 5er.

If you rely on the manufacturer's tow rating, you're guaranteed to be overloaded when you hit the CAT scale in the middle of your third towing trip.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:17 PM   #24
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We had a rodeo last weekend in our area and met the brother of the F450 in the photo above, albeit white but with the same tow body, and with only a gooseneck hitch for pulling a horse trailer. Awesome rig, pulling horses all over the western US.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:03 PM   #25
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The numbers that manufacturers give for 5th wheel towing capacity are for EMPTY trucks! Take the GCWR subtract the tow capacity they give and you have the truck's empty weight. That's why you have to compute the ACTUAL tow capacity by taking that GCWR and subtracting the TV's weight when ready to tow. That way, the pin weight is added to the truck and subtracted from the trailer.
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