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Old 08-06-2013, 09:50 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ken90004 View Post
Except he is not running oveoaded, correct?
I don't think we know that yet. If his 'estimated' weights are correct, he's not. To know for sure, he needs to weigh his trailer loaded and individually, then weigh his whole rig completely loaded with his stuff and his traveling companions. If he were WAY UNDER the GCWR, he'd be OK, but since he's close he ought to weigh, imo.
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We all take risks when we drive. I don't think there is a person here that can say they've never broke a speed limit. We are all guilty at putting others at risk, present company included. But, id like to think that RVers are some of the safer drivers on the road.
Breaking the speed limit is not putting people at risk, necessarily. Many times running the speed limit is more risky, but that's another discussion. but to knowingly put people at risk is reckless and irresponsible, imo.

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I think there is simply a differ of opinion on what the manufacturer says is loaded vs overloaded. I have five inquires out to help satisfy my interests.
I don't think 'opinion' comes into play, at all. The limits are published on your TV, either you're overloaded or you're not. I hope you'll post the answers to your inquiries.
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I stand that the OP is good, i trust his numbers and would be happy to share the open road with him.
Very well. And I hope he's OK too. This is not a grey area, though. Either you're overloaded, or you're not.

If *I* were the OP, *I* would want to know if I have overloaded my vehicle, because *I* would feel really bad for it to break and hurt someone. And, it would just be a real bummer if I burned up my transmission.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:20 AM   #30
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Of course its an opinion. This is an open forum and is all based on opinion.

My opinion is the world does not operate in absolutes. And no single person is right. You can add variables to towing such as elevation, ambient temperature, road temp, road conditions, metal impurities and metal fatgue on all components. The list can go on, and each will change a black and white number. But this reminds me of saying:
"not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert E.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:29 AM   #31
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Well this post has gone in the direction I thought it would.

Anyways. I called my local weigh scale station. Now mind you I am in vancouver B.C. Canada.

I was told that as long at your travel trailer does not exceed your trucks GVWR. They will not bother you. And as long as your mirrors extend past the TT and you can see behind you you are fine.

The only time will you get pulled over is if they see a TV and TT that do not look properly set up. Or a over loaded situation.

Now living here in B.C. I see lots of RV folks. And it is amazing to me how many vehicles are set up incorrectly and overloaded. And how many 2500 and 3500 series trucks I watch go down the road with a WDH and dragging the bumper because they have loaded the bed to the max. And still some how think they are legal to tow a 30ft trailer.

And I also understand that on this site ppl are all about safe towing and that's great. But I am getting a bit tired of always hearing. Well if you want to tow a 20ft TT you need a 1500 or 2500 series truck.

Guess what. There are very light weight TT and some of the true light weight trailers are also narrower and shorter than a standard TT.

And I agree that we all should take accountability when buying a TT. The dealers will want to up sell and we all look for the bigger and better.

I spent a year researching and learning everything I could before I bought mine.

Also here is another interesting but of info on being underrated for towing.

When the chevy colorado was introduced everyone said the inline 5 was junk because it could only tow 4000 pounds. But all of a sudden in 2007 they came out with the 3.7 inline 5 and the tow capacity shot to 5000 pounds tow capacity. But the odd thing was the GCVW was the same and did not change from 9000 pounds.

But in 2008 they changed the factory rear hitch and the front brakes got a bit bigger. The weight went up to 5500 pounds for the Inline 5 and 6000 pounds for the 5.3 v8 option GCVW went to 9500 pounds.

But when gm first started sales on the colorado. They stated that anyone wanting to tow more that 4000 pound would buy a full size truck. The real resone for this is back in the s10 days with the 4.3 v6 ppl were towing lots with this set up and sales fell on the 1500. So underrate the colorado and then when sales slump all of a sudden the weight rating goes up.

Sorry for the long post. But ppl need to understand that vehicles are underrated to a degree and TT are also. And as long as you find the happy medium you will be fine. And don't put all your faith in a sales person and do your own home work before rushing out to buy your new TT.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:36 AM   #32
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In real estate - a wineo on the street can give you and opinion of value - an appraiser can give you an appraised value. Both are opinions. I would go with the appraiser.

A individual can push weight numbers around from one piece of paper to another and come to an opinion. A scale will give you an opinion of weights. I would go with the scale.

There are facts and there are opinions. So long as we can not agree that there are facts concerning tow vehicles and weights there can be no agreement - only debate. For me, the debate is over.

One last point - there are many fine books on towing, balance, weight distribution and such. Of course if there are no facts, then no need to go any further with your inquiry. You will only get opinions and throw out the ones that conflict with yours. No more from me.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:01 AM   #33
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Here are some facts: The vehicle manufacturer gives the user 4 ratings (GCWR, GVWR, front GAWR and rear GAWR) and specifically states not to exceed ANY of them. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I stay on the left side of those ratings, then I'm on pretty safe ground. When I start pushing to the right on any of them, I'm walking myself into a gray area where I don't have empirical data on just how far I can go, and the farther I go the higher the risks.

The safe approach when a newbie asks what he/she can tow is to size the trailer to stay within the towing vehicle manufacturer's ratings. These are hard, fast numbers that are traceable back to the manufacturer. Anything else is subjective opinion.

JM2CW.....

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Old 08-06-2013, 11:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Fast0ne View Post
I was told that as long at your travel trailer does not exceed your trucks GVWR. They will not bother you. And as long as your mirrors extend past the TT and you can see behind you you are fine.
The gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is the maximum operating weight of a vehicle as specified by the manufacturer including the vehicle's chassis, body, engine, engine fluids, fuel, accessories, driver, passengers and cargo but excluding that of any trailers.

You need to weigh your VEHICLE to come to the GVWR, and make sure that GVWR does not exceed your vehicle's rating. You also need to weigh your trailer to make sure IT is within your vehicle's capabilities. Then you need to weigh them BOTH to make sure you don't exceed your GCWR.
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Originally Posted by Fast0ne View Post
The only time will you get pulled over is if they see a TV and TT that do not look properly set up. Or a over loaded situation.

Now living here in B.C. I see lots of RV folks. And it is amazing to me how many vehicles are set up incorrectly and overloaded. And how many 2500 and 3500 series trucks I watch go down the road with a WDH and dragging the bumper because they have loaded the bed to the max. And still some how think they are legal to tow a 30ft trailer.
"Legal" and "Safe" are two different things. There are two main threats on the road: A) Being issued a ticket, and B) Being involved in an accident. Where they conflict, I will take A any day over B. Compliance with the law always makes you safer from 'A' above, but only sometimes makes you safer from 'B'.
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Originally Posted by Fast0ne View Post
And I also understand that on this site ppl are all about safe towing and that's great. But I am getting a bit tired of always hearing. Well if you want to tow a 20ft TT you need a 1500 or 2500 series truck.

Guess what. There are very light weight TT and some of the true light weight trailers are also narrower and shorter than a standard TT.

And I agree that we all should take accountability when buying a TT. The dealers will want to up sell and we all look for the bigger and better.

I spent a year researching and learning everything I could before I bought mine.
You may well need a 2500 to tow your 20' TT. The numbers are on the door, and the method of determination is well documented. Opinions are irrelevant. The weights and ratings are what matters.
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Originally Posted by Fast0ne View Post
When the chevy colorado was introduced everyone said the inline 5 was junk because it could only tow 4000 pounds. But all of a sudden in 2007 they came out with the 3.7 inline 5 and the tow capacity shot to 5000 pounds tow capacity. But the odd thing was the GCVW was the same and did not change from 9000 pounds.

But in 2008 they changed the factory rear hitch and the front brakes got a bit bigger. The weight went up to 5500 pounds for the Inline 5 and 6000 pounds for the 5.3 v8 option GCVW went to 9500 pounds.

But when gm first started sales on the colorado. They stated that anyone wanting to tow more that 4000 pound would buy a full size truck. The real resone for this is back in the s10 days with the 4.3 v6 ppl were towing lots with this set up and sales fell on the 1500. So underrate the colorado and then when sales slump all of a sudden the weight rating goes up.
Vehicles are almost certainly more capable than their ratings would suggest. But these margins are part of the engineering to take into account fringe failures, unforeseeable defects, occasional excesses, etc. You can not ever know what the ACTUAL limit is for a given vehicle, but you DO know what the safe limit is, because it's on a sticker inside the driver side door.
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Sorry for the long post. But ppl need to understand that vehicles are underrated to a degree and TT are also. And as long as you find the happy medium you will be fine. And don't put all your faith in a sales person and do your own home work before rushing out to buy your new TT.
Vehicles are underrated for specific reasons. I cannot say what those reasons are, but I'm sure they are not so I can regularly run overloaded.

I, too, apologize for the long post, and really this thread has become way more contentious than it should be. My only point is, there is no dark art to determining how heavy a load you can carry. No magic is involved. Weigh your rig, and read your sticker. If you're over, do something to reduce your weight or increase your capacity. Simple as that.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:32 AM   #35
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I do agree that we should expel all the wineo on this site, and certify all the self proclaimed expects. We could even have one ‘tow expert’ that answers all the towing questions.

The OP said he is heavy on his tow, and I'm going with the facts that he is an intelligent individual, he's gathered his information. He may or may not have towing experience, but let’s extend the courtesy to him that he isn't overloaded, because he said as much.

For myself, I will emphasize with him, and give me my experiences. Why that turns into a, who's right or wrong, got me stumped.

We could both write a book on towing, but that doesn’t make either of the books facts. And I have an odd feeling both books would end up starting camp fires before anyone would read them.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:18 PM   #36
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So, let me get this straight, the conclusion thus far is that no one needs worry about the tow limits because lawyers understate those limits to avoid liability?
In dealing with design, manufacturing, marketing, and legal dept. at Deere, the lawyers don't know jack, except law and liability. They relied totally on what the engineers stated based on test results. They have a law degree, but not a mechancial engineering.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:31 PM   #37
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In real estate - a wineo on the street can give you and opinion of value - an appraiser can give you an appraised value. Both are opinions. I would go with the appraiser.

A individual can push weight numbers around from one piece of paper to another and come to an opinion. A scale will give you an opinion of weights. I would go with the scale.

There are facts and there are opinions. So long as we can not agree that there are facts concerning tow vehicles and weights there can be no agreement - only debate. For me, the debate is over.

One last point - there are many fine books on towing, balance, weight distribution and such. Of course if there are no facts, then no need to go any further with your inquiry. You will only get opinions and throw out the ones that conflict with yours. No more from me.
With over 8 posts a day I am sure you will be somewhere.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:59 PM   #38
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With over 8 posts a day I am sure you will be somewhere.
Thanks for the update! And allowing me to raise my average by reporting

only 70 Thanks total to date.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:04 PM   #39
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Thanks for the update! And allowing me to raise my average by reporting

only 70 Thanks total to date.
Too busy having fun, that's what retirement is supposed to be about. Hunting, fishing, golf, and just traveling about.
I just don't get on here much. And now I know why.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:27 PM   #40
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The few times I am on here I have always noticed that the 3 or 4 that seem to know the most are all from Texas. Maybe what I have always heard is true. Guess that's why we winter in Florida.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:44 PM   #41
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Folks, let's please stay on topic and refrain from personal comments about other members.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:19 PM   #42
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Sorry, no personal comments, just observations.
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