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Old 05-14-2015, 09:52 PM   #43
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This whole topic is so terribly frustrating / confusing!

Take for example my truck... 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel / auto. QCLB 4x4. Truck has a GCWR of 20,000 and GVWR of 9000. Same axles, same brakes, same everything as its 3500 sister.

My truck on a Cat scale, loaded for travel w/ full family weights 7,660 lbs. Front axle weight is 4720, rear axle weighs 2940.

FAWR = 5200 lbs / RAWR = 6020lbs.

Lots of room on the rear axle right... Not so fast... Just 1340lbs of tongue weight in the bed would put me over my GVWR...

So basically if I were to follow the letter of the law, and assuming a 20% tongue weight, The largest fifth wheel I could pull would be a max weight of 6,700 lbs.
There is no letter of any law from a legal standpoint that uses the trucks GVWR to determine a trucks load or a over weight condition.
See #8 reply on the first page.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:49 PM   #44
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In my province, my truck legal capacity is limited by the tire capacity. The trailer hitch weight capacity is determined by the load on the rear axle and tires and no actual trailer capacity. My F250 is registered for under 12000 lbs and I have tire capacity of 15000 lbs which if I wanted to I could have it regisyterted for that much commercially.
The rear wheel capacity is 7500 lbs with 3000 lbs unloaded weight that gives me 4500 lbs hitch weight and possible trailer weight of 22500 lbs and commercially legal. Of course due to excess weight I would need the CDL driver licence. No mention of the OEM listed capacity. And that is the law for any truck be it 2500 or 3500 SRW.
Most Duellies capacity is increased by tire capacities at 6 x 3000 or 18000 lbs. So 3000 lbs more.
But no OEM trucks made have the spring capacity so commercially we add plies to set it up properly. So far in all my experience I have never seen an overload truck causing an accident. Cell phones and drunk driving causes the majority of accidents in my parts.

So do not expect the F250 SRWs to be more capable them the F250 because you might just be surprised as they are no safer due to similar hardware plus they stand higher which for us is a stability and work inconvenience.
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:44 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post
That axle shaft diameter is a known typo from Ford.
Ford folks tell us the last column should go under the Dana S111 and the second column of numbers with the 37 spline goes under the Dana 80 in the DRW truck.
The only RAWR Fords shows for the 2015 F250/F350 SRW 6.7 diesel option are on pages #73 down to page #77.

Axles on a full floater don't carry weight anyway. They just turn the rear gears.

That a particular F350 SRW may have a Dana 80 is a moot point. Hell lots of older 2500 Dodge/Cummins 4.10 gears with the NV5600 uses the Dana 80.
This is correct. The axles are identical as is every other part between the 250 and SRW 350. The 250 is de-rated from the factory as are it's axles. The two small differences generally sited between the two, the 4" vs. 2" block and overload spring, can actually be ordered on the 250. The 4" block comes with the FX4 and plow prep and the overload comes with the camper pkg. So, a 250 can be ordered with every part identical to the 350 SRW. Here are the part numbers for a 2012 F250 vs. F350. I chose 2012 but the results are the same if you search any year of the current generation from 11-15.

F250 Left Rear Axle BC3Z4234C
F250 Right Rear Axle BC3Z4234D

F350 Left Rear Axle BC3Z4234C
F350 Right Rear Axle BC3Z4234D

And here are the links to verify:

2012 F250 https://www.silverstatefordparts.com...R%20SUSPENSION


2012 F350 https://www.silverstatefordparts.com...R%20SUSPENSION


Here is a link to the question being asked directly to a Ford engineer when they were on the FTE forums answering questions about the 2015 motor update. They were only there to answer questions about 2015 so the MY is mentioned but is irrelevant as they are all the same. Meet the Team Behind the 2015 Ford F-Series Super Duty, May 1-May 16, 2014 - Page 9 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:06 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by chertz View Post
This whole topic is so terribly frustrating / confusing!

Take for example my truck... 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel / auto. QCLB 4x4. Truck has a GCWR of 20,000 and GVWR of 9000. Same axles, same brakes, same everything as its 3500 sister.

My truck on a Cat scale, loaded for travel w/ full family weights 7,660 lbs. Front axle weight is 4720, rear axle weighs 2940.

FAWR = 5200 lbs / RAWR = 6020lbs.

Lots of room on the rear axle right... Not so fast... Just 1340lbs of tongue weight in the bed would put me over my GVWR...

So basically if I were to follow the letter of the law, and assuming a 20% tongue weight, The largest fifth wheel I could pull would be a max weight of 6,700 lbs.

LOL... Yep... roll that one around in your brains the next time you see that truck pulling a 40' DRV.
Oh yeah. I had a 2000 F250 diesel. GVWR of 8800 lbs. It weighed 8000 with me, wife and dog. Gross combined weight (GCWR) was 20,000 lbs. I pull a 13,300 lb 5th wheel. I was over loaded by 1,400 lbs gross vehicle and gross combined.

I buy a 2001 dually F350 so it weighs exactly the same plus two tires and two rims. GVWR is 11,500 lbs. So now when I hook up the 5er I'm under but.....it has a GCWR of 20,000 just like the F250!

So I'm safe on one side but the same boat on the other. But the F350 tows much better and the truck itself is not over loaded.
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by caissiel View Post
In my province, my truck legal capacity is limited by the tire capacity. The trailer hitch weight capacity is determined by the load on the rear axle and tires and no actual trailer capacity.

What is the easiest way to determine how each state handles the legal capacities of a pickup truck for non commercial use?
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:51 AM   #48
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What is the easiest way to determine how each state handles the legal capacities of a pickup truck for non commercial use?
Look up the states DMV towing laws.
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Old 05-15-2015, 10:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by caissiel View Post
In my province, my truck legal capacity is limited by the tire capacity. The trailer hitch weight capacity is determined by the load on the rear axle and tires and no actual trailer capacity. My F250 is registered for under 12000 lbs and I have tire capacity of 15000 lbs which if I wanted to I could have it regisyterted for that much commercially.
The rear wheel capacity is 7500 lbs with 3000 lbs unloaded weight that gives me 4500 lbs hitch weight and possible trailer weight of 22500 lbs and commercially legal. Of course due to excess weight I would need the CDL driver licence. No mention of the OEM listed capacity. And that is the law for any truck be it 2500 or 3500 SRW.
Most Duellies capacity is increased by tire capacities at 6 x 3000 or 18000 lbs. So 3000 lbs more.
But no OEM trucks made have the spring capacity so commercially we add plies to set it up properly. So far in all my experience I have never seen an overload truck causing an accident. Cell phones and drunk driving causes the majority of accidents in my parts.

So do not expect the F250 SRWs to be more capable them the F250 because you might just be surprised as they are no safer due to similar hardware plus they stand higher which for us is a stability and work inconvenience.

Some laws haven't been updated in 80 years. In Alberta, from a legal standpoint, you could put G rated tires on a Ford Ranger (registered for non commercial use) and haul a ton of fertilizer, but as soon as you cross the border into BC and get pulled over you will walk home and have your day in court to.
Also, if someone was involved in an accident and the insurance company becomes aware they were overloaded (unsecure/unsafe load) that would open a whole different can of worms, they will argue that the truck's capacities were exceeded and will try to get every penny back they spent.
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Old 05-15-2015, 11:57 AM   #50
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Look up the states DMV towing laws.

Yeah I've tried that but finding anything on a Government web site is impossible, I know they make is hard to find on purpose.
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Old 05-15-2015, 02:26 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post
There is no letter of any law from a legal standpoint that uses the trucks GVWR to determine a trucks load or a over weight condition.
See #8 reply on the first page.

Thanks Jim... So what you are saying is that I can realistically handle a camper up to the RAWR of my truck which would realistically be 12,000 - 12,500 lbs at 20% pin weight? (2,400 - 2,500 lbs)

See why this **** is so confusing?
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:41 PM   #52
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Thanks Jim... So what you are saying is that I can realistically handle a camper up to the RAWR of my truck which would realistically be 12,000 - 12,500 lbs at 20% pin weight? (2,400 - 2,500 lbs)

See why this **** is so confusing?
Geez..... I thought it was simple. Your scenario sound about right though.

My '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins NV5600 3.73 axle has a 13350 lb tow rating.
My RV trailer weighs around 11200-11400 depending on how its loaded. Pin weight runs in the 2200-2300 lb range depending on how the trailer is loaded which puts my trucks 6000 RAWR at 5100-5300 lbs. Load on the trucks front axle doesn't change so I'm good to go.

Quote:
What is the easiest way to determine how each state handles the legal capacities of a pickup truck for non commercial use?
.
Contact your state commercial size and weights division. They will have your answers.
..... or drop by your local state troop folks and ask them. Most troopers haven't been schooled in their states size and weights programs but they can give you a contact number usually back to the commercial side.
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cypressloser View Post
Some laws haven't been updated in 80 years. In Alberta, from a legal standpoint, you could put G rated tires on a Ford Ranger (registered for non commercial use) and haul a ton of fertilizer, but as soon as you cross the border into BC and get pulled over you will walk home and have your day in court to.
Also, if someone was involved in an accident and the insurance company becomes aware they were overloaded (unsecure/unsafe load) that would open a whole different can of worms, they will argue that the truck's capacities were exceeded and will try to get every penny back they spent.
Confusing is right. I looked at the Alberta Transportation website and found the following to my query. I was directed to this information.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...ehtowguide.pdf

This document contains a reference to the Traffic Safety Act. Under section 56 there is the following:

Equipment standards 65(1) Except as otherwise permitted under this Act, a person shall
not do any of the following:
RSA 2000
Se
(a) drive or operate a vehicle on a highway unless that vehicle
complies with the vehicle and equipment standards set out
in the regulations in respect of that vehicle;

Any attempts to further determine the regulations in respect of that vehicle took me back the recvehtowguide.

One can only assume that they are aware of vehicle standards and have rules in place about them. It could be that they chose not to enforce them at the moment.

I believe there are similar regulations in most jurisdictions. It would be a very foolish government agency that disregarded the manufacturers standards and gave out authority to exceed said standards.
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Old 05-17-2015, 05:43 PM   #54
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Here's the thing. Most folks here say ignore the advertised hitch weight and figure 20-25% of the fifth wheel trailer weight; usually said in conjunction with someone needing advice looking at fifth wheels that bump up against maximum cargo weight capacity. When it comes to testing compliance with laws and regulation, is the manufactures stated hitch weight ignored and the 20% used when a scale is unavailable?
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:01 PM   #55
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Here's the thing. Most folks here say ignore the advertised hitch weight and figure 20-25% of the fifth wheel trailer weight; usually said in conjunction with someone needing advice looking at fifth wheels that bump up against maximum cargo weight capacity. When it comes to testing compliance with laws and regulation, is the manufactures stated hitch weight ignored and the 20% used when a scale is unavailable?
"Listed" hitch weight is for empty. The mfgs can't advertise loaded weight because you may not load it properly. The 20-25% pin weight is for proper loading.
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Old 05-18-2015, 12:10 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by fvstringpicker View Post
Here's the thing. Most folks here say ignore the advertised hitch weight and figure 20-25% of the fifth wheel trailer weight; usually said in conjunction with someone needing advice looking at fifth wheels that bump up against maximum cargo weight capacity. When it comes to testing compliance with laws and regulation, is the manufactures stated hitch weight ignored and the 20% used when a scale is unavailable?
I agree with jesilvas about listed empty weight. The advice to use 20 - 25% of the GVWR is for estimating the amount of weight that would be likely on a fully loaded 5er. IMO no matter what 5er you purchase, eventually you will find enough stuff to bring it up to close the the GVWR. If you dont the little bit extra you will have calculated will not result in a tow vehicle that is grossly over capacity.

I dont quite understand the question but assume you mean if the Compliance Officer decides to check you out.

The officer will either direct you to a weigh scale, escort you to a weigh scale or escort you to a level parking area where they will employ portable wheel scales to determine the actual weight.

Using estimated or calculated weight from a GVW or the manufacturers brochures would be a very quick way to get the officer chastised by the judge for wasting the judge's and the court's time.

Anybody who is stopped and issued a ticket based on the officer estimating how much he is carrying should fight it from the get go. I seriously doubt any officer would bother stopping you for weight unless he has access to a scale. Every officer would be very aware of where the available scales are.
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