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Old 10-28-2013, 08:40 PM   #15
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What model year did they start mandating this? Seems to me that older diesel trucks and DP motorhomes may be more valuable and have a higher resale value?
I have a 2011 Cummins with no DEF. The 12 or 13 Cummins were going to use DEF or so I was told.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:45 PM   #16
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03 was the first step. Many EGR systems were introduced then.
08 was the next level. DPFs appeared.
13 is the most recent (I think. Maybe 11). Some went to SCR technology, and others went to DEF. However, Cummins light duty 6.7 hasn't needed DEF until their 14 model.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:03 PM   #17
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03 was the first step. Many EGR systems were introduced then.
08 was the next level. DPFs appeared.
13 is the most recent (I think. Maybe 11). Some went to SCR technology, and others went to DEF. However, Cummins light duty 6.7 hasn't needed DEF until their 14 model.
I think it varies by product and specific emissions. VW started putting the DPFs on with my model year ('06). The earlier V10s did not have them.

That said, the small 4 cylinder diesels are so clean that they do not require either DEF or DPF even now.
So there's no rule as far as I know.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:07 PM   #18
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Is there emissions delete tuning for you?
There is, but because the V10s are kind of an odd-ball in the US, it's hard to find.
Honestly, I havent spent too much time on it yet.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:09 PM   #19
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Is there emissions delete tuning for you?
Which is probably illegal here in the US. I know one outfit that was selling the delete kit was ordered to quit and levied a good size fine, more than they ever made selling the kits and may put them permanently out of business.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:26 PM   #20
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Which is probably illegal here in the US. I know one outfit that was selling the delete kit was ordered to quit and levied a good size fine, more than they ever made selling the kits and may put them permanently out of business.
Yes it is unless it is for "off road use."
So are a lot of other things that you, me, and everyone else do every day.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:02 AM   #21
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Thank you all so much for the feedback.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:59 AM   #22
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All new diesels utilize these three systems . They use DEF it also has an egr system that employs a valve to recirculate exhust gas and a dpf filter for particulates . Which the ash is burned in a regeneration cycle periodiclly. All this for exhust and when the truck gets old and these marvels of tech start breaking hold
on to your wallet!
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:25 AM   #23
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The law started mandating the DEF equipment in 2010. A lot of manufactures stock piled engines from previous years to avoid the DEF standards for a time. My 2011 Journey is DEF equipped, but I have seen some 2010's that are not. They were manufactured with 2009 Cummins engines. I personally have no complaints with the DEF system. On my 6.7L Cummins I use about 6 gal of DEF per 3,000 miles. I have 6,200 miles on my 34y (31,000 #) and I have been averaging 10.2 mpg towing a Chevy Colorado (4,600#). Hoping that 10.2 will improve as the unit gets broke in more. Also, you can tell that the system is working, just take your finger and wipe the inside of a DEF tail pipe, your finger will be clean. Try it on a pre-DEF tail pipe...
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:55 AM   #24
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DEF is not taking care of soot. The DPF is.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:35 AM   #25
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DEF is not taking care of soot. The DPF is.
The engine tuning for DEF only engine is different, and the tune inherently has far less soot than an engine tuned to use just a DPF.

Fact is, for 2014 tier 4 emissions and Euro6 will be in it's final stage. 2014 onward will require manufacturers to use both DEF and DPF for larger engines. Emissions from here on out will be squeaky clean. Smaller engines can probably get away with just DEF and a good tune to keep particulates from forming.

It should also be noted that emissions equipment has a federally mandated warranty period that may be longer than the manufacturers normal powertrain warranty. The emissions warranty can be no less than 5 years /100000 miles. IMO with all the emissions crap tacked onto an engine, it should be more like 10 years, 150,000 miles. People need to take that up with legislators and the EPA.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:57 AM   #26
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Smaller engines can probably get away with just DEF and a good tune to keep particulates from forming.
What do you mean by larger and smaller? As in 6.xL v. 2.xL or those v. 16L?
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:38 PM   #27
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DEF is not taking care of soot. The DPF is.
I don't know which is responsible but the new diesel exhaust are clean, compared to the old smoke & soot machines of the past..
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:53 PM   #28
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What do you mean by larger and smaller? As in 6.xL v. 2.xL or those v. 16L?
I'm more familiar with industrial diesel engines as i'm an engineer in that industry. For us there are power level tier's. Obviously a small engine that only produces 25HP wouldn't be cost feasible to put DEF and DPF, but being smaller engine it can produce smaller levels of emissions by it's inherent size. So the EPA gives us different guidelines for engines this size as opposed to engines over 200HP. It's not exactly a linear relationship so there is wiggle room to get away with using less emissions equipment in some engines at the lower end of each range.

I can't find a good resource with charts for the on-road diesel vehicles, but i would imagine Heavy duty trucks have different emissions targets than say a 2.0L TDI VW Jetta.

Here's the chart that we go off of, you can see how the NOX levels and particulate matter levels are the same for everything from 50HP to 173HP. but the chart shows much larger for everything from 174HP to 750hp. So those engines closer to the 174Hp range can probably still get away using less emissions technology.

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