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Old 05-29-2014, 06:10 AM   #85
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Im sorry but if you are paying double for all that stuff, someone is really taking advantage of you. Yes my F-250 is more expensive to maintain than an F-150, but that is in regards to bigger brakes, larger cooling system, more tranny fluid when changing, more and synthetic only diff fluids...etc. All of those components are the same if you run a gas or diesel. Its the higher maintenance cost of having a bigger more capable truck. I recently did some diesel specific maintenance, turbo rebuild, new turbo wheels, glow plugs, glow plug relay, and new batteries. Total was about $900. And now when I tow my trailer, even with my lift kit I still get much better mileage and easier towing capabilities than the gas F-250s my friends have, much much better than the F-150. Im sorry, but if mine was anywhere near double the cost of a gas truck that can tow as well, I would not own my diesel.

Not to mention the resale of my 7.3 is around 13,000. You wont get that much for an equivalent gas truck.
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:44 AM   #86
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I use twice as much oil in my diesel and more expensive oil and I change it at half the mileage to avoid engine damage from soot buildup that is common to the diesel engine. I paid an extra $9,000 for the diesel and Allison upgrade when I bought the truck. I have two batteries to replace instead of one battery. Fuel filter changes are 3x as often as with my gas engine powered trucks. Air cleaners are double the cost. The cost to replace a NOx sensor in my truck at $750 was more than double the cost to replace an oxygen sensor in any of my gas powered vehicles. I pay more for diesel than I do for premium gas at the pumps and I also pay for DEF fluid. Two friends have had their injectors replaced at 65,000 and 122,000 miles and the cost was over $4,500 for one and over $8,000 for the other as it included new head gaskets. I can buy an entire rebuilt V-8 gas engine for that amount and have it installed. I find it a little difficult to understand why people will buy a diesel and then have to kid themselves that they are saving money in the process. Why is this so important to their egos? Why get emotionally involved with a truck?
People will take your money if you are willing to give it to them. The bottom line is a diesel truck will do what a gas truck will not.
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Old 05-29-2014, 10:04 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by elkhornsun View Post
I use twice as much oil in my diesel and more expensive oil and I change it at half the mileage to avoid engine damage from soot buildup that is common to the diesel engine. I paid an extra $9,000 for the diesel and Allison upgrade when I bought the truck. I have two batteries to replace instead of one battery. Fuel filter changes are 3x as often as with my gas engine powered trucks. Air cleaners are double the cost. The cost to replace a NOx sensor in my truck at $750 was more than double the cost to replace an oxygen sensor in any of my gas powered vehicles. I pay more for diesel than I do for premium gas at the pumps and I also pay for DEF fluid. Two friends have had their injectors replaced at 65,000 and 122,000 miles and the cost was over $4,500 for one and over $8,000 for the other as it included new head gaskets. I can buy an entire rebuilt V-8 gas engine for that amount and have it installed. I find it a little difficult to understand why people will buy a diesel and then have to kid themselves that they are saving money in the process. Why is this so important to their egos? Why get emotionally involved with a truck?
You left out a bunch of info sir. Year/model/mileage ect. Older diesels cost more to service. Fuel filter is a water separator which on most you can drain and not have to replace when clogged up. And still you and your two friends still own them
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Old 05-30-2014, 06:04 PM   #88
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I pull my trailer 4 to 5 x a year. The rest of the time I just drive around town doing everyday normal stuff and would not trade my diesel in for a gasser if the service cost tripled. I know a few people that went from a gasser to a diesel but not the other way.
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Old 06-01-2014, 04:41 PM   #89
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I dunno' guys. Your all jumping all over anyone who chimes in, on the gas side of the debate, as to the ever-narrowing gap between the justification of diesel over gas. I think we're all painting the debate with too broad a brush. It needs to be broken down into certain purchase price points and model years.

I have both diesel and gas (two diesels, 5.9 CTD and 7.3 PS and a V10 Dodge Ram). I haven't had to tow my FW with my gasser yet but I'm going to do a comparison pull in some hilly areas this summer just to see if diesel really is waaaaaaay better. I'll do one trip with my V10 Dodge and one with my 7.3 F350. I'm guessing the comparison will be minimal.

Now when it comes to the newer diesels, I can understand the justification for diesel. I mean, if you're going out and buying a $55,000 gas truck, why not pay $65,000 and get the diesel? You'll certainly have a better resale value (based on present day scenarios). And paying 17% more for diesel, as part of the purchase price, is justifiable vs. paying 50-100% more on the used or "pre-owned" (pre-owned, what a db term!), market. Owning a new diesel that is still under warranty makes sense. Owning a USED diesel that is out of warranty is asking for your wallet to get drained... unless, IMO, you go with a proven powerplant like the CUmmins 5.9 or the 7.3 Powerstoke.

Because of the perception issue, that owning a diesel means you have bigger balls, you can pick up a used gasser for a real bargain. They just don't retain resale value like diesels do. I'd have to drive my diesel for 11.5 years to make up the purchase price difference over my gasser truck, in terms of fuel economy difference. Factor in the added routine Mx as well as any mechanical surprises or appetizing upgrades, and you're looking at closer to 20 years. For me, that's the price I'm willing to pay because at used prices I paid cash and have enough money sitting around to fund a nightmare surprise. But for others, having to put $5,000 into their truck on ONE repair bill can wipe them out. 10,000 miles later if they suffer a tranny breakdown or any myriad of traditional problems... well, they would've been better off going gas.

And therein lies the question about the ultimate trajectory of the debate: Will diesel continue to rein over gas in the not-too-distant future? Well, considering how complicated and EXPENSIVE the newer diesels have become, and that they no longer have bragging rights about fuel economy, I'm guessing diesel will no longer retain the stout resale value that we've all become accustom to. I'm talking in 5 or 10 years from now. Look at the price of luxury cars. For example: I saw a 2009 Mercedes S550 in impeccable shape, with ultra-low profile tires on 330s (super wide), sitting at my local consignment lot. The guy is asking $18,000. Not a bad price considering how much they cost new ($140,000) and factoring in his $6,000 tire/ rim package. Yet there are no takers thus far. Reason? I'm guessing those of us who would love to own such a beautiful car are terrified of the cost to maintain it. Resale value literally plummets. If you're a luxury/ exotic car mechanic, then I'm sure it's a no-brainer to pick up that kind of a ride. But how many of use can claim that title? Ok, perhaps the exotic car comparison is a bit underwhelming. Diesels are more commonplace for sure and will therefore be easier to service, what with forums and the plethora of diesel shops out there. But you get my overall point, I'm sure. Imagine discovering that the new 6.7 Fords have some sort of major mx issue after say the 150,000 mile mark. Would you want to expose yourself to a $9,000 engine repair after having paid $30,000 for that used-truck in the first place (I'm referring to the guy who 5 years from now picks up a 2014 King Ranch 6.7 Ford diesel, with, say, 90,000 miles, for $30,000 on the used market)?

In short, I'm evloving my opinion to state that if going new, buying a diesel makes sense... for most. The new ones are leaps and bounds better than models from 10-15 years ago, therefore the price can be justified. Better technology = increased towing capacity and better ride, etc (resale value to be determined 5-10 years from now). Used, OTOH... well, you'd better know what you're getting into else you'll be breaking the bank fixing someone else's (now yours) problems. For me, I made sure to get a non-chipped, non-modded, 7.3 PS to minimize that risk. That I way I know the engine still has a lot of life left in it. On my 5.9 Cummins, I fixed all the mainstream problems it had prior to getting stuck on the side of the road and it's been unbelievably reliable since the day I bought it. Fixing problems that are known issues well ahead of the breakdown saves twice the repair costs because you can shop around the component and/ or mechanic doing the work.

OTOH, what seems complicated to repair today, may indeed be a cinch for the average mechanic 5-10 years from now. It will be interesting to see if the resale values hold 5-10 years from today. THAT will ultimately decide the finality of this debate.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:14 AM   #90
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I will say this one last thing about a diesel vs gas. You cant always rely on the dealer to do repairs on a diesel truck. In my area small towns and small dealerships. The Chevy dealer has one guy certified to work on diesel. None of the mom and pop garages can do much on them either. My boss has a 13 duramax its under warrenty so he would go to the dealer. Mine is 07 no warranty. I have not had to have any repairs on it YET. It is a machine and will break down at some point as do all vehicles. Its not if it happens its when. When that happens I will take it to an actual diesel shop. There a a few around here. Which one is best? Depends on who you ask.
A shop is only as good as its mechanics. The one or two guys at your dealer may be diesel genius. How do you know? You don't. So I suggest unless you know they are really good with diesel go to an actual diesel shop where the guys are trained, certified and specialize in diesel.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:58 PM   #91
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I just stopped by the car mechanic we have used for many years. he owns his own small place. I have always respected that he keeps very up to date on the latest problems and fixes of the various model vehicles.
I had wanted to know whether he works on diesel trucks which he does. BUT he feels that the modern diesels are not worth it. He says that they are electronic now and prone to expensive repairs. He thinks that we should get a truck with a gas engine. He liked the old diesels.
I also asked him about the height of the new trucks we have been seeing at the dealerships. You may remember the thread I started about why a used truck we saw was a much better entrance height than the new trucks on the Chevy lot.
He said that people seem to want the trucks to be "all jacked up". One of the fisherman in town has a new truck and he has been complaining to the mechanic that it is too high. He would like to lower it but has been told that to do so will void his warranty.
All opinions are welcome!
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New or used?
Towing how much?
Budget?

I've had at least a half dozen trucks, Fords, Dodge, Chevy. The best one of all of them was a Duramax 4-door LT - a Cadillac on a truck chassis. With hypertune it put out over 600ft lbs of torque. Tow capacity is over 10K lbs on them. It would get 22-23mpg on the hiway unloaded - 14-15 with a 5K lb boat. Rode like crap when not loaded.

There's no substitute for displacement - you can't get a big gas V8 anymore - all of the big trucks are diesel. They have good warranties. There would be absolutely no question in my mind for big towing.
I agree with your last sentence. I like a good diesel. But The computers (OEM and after market tuners)that have increased the power over the older Diesels are also what let them make the lower emissions and greater power reduce the life of the engine.

The New Gas engines 6.2L Ford & GM 6.4L Dodge all have better HP/Torque than the old 460,454,440 did back in the older trucks. All while useing less fuel.

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Why would computer-controlled diesels be any more prone to expensive repairs than computer-controlled gassers?
one word Vibration. I still have one of the last years of a diesel 1989 Ford 7.3 IDI(in my old tow truck) that had V belts. You should see how those belt are tortured at a idle. The crank looks more like it jumps every 90 degrees rather turns smoothly.
Electronic devises do not like vibration in the least. Heck it even takes a special light bulb to withstand vibrations.
And the computer is just part of expensive repairs problem. I can get a remaned injection pump and 8 injectors for my old 7.3 for $600. See how far you get in the Newer fuel systems for that kind of money. You MIGHT get you a second injector,....If your lucky. These old fuel systems run 1500-2000PSI, the new ones are 20,000-30,000 PSI. the price of the new high pressure pumps are more than what it take me to replace my old 7.3 IDI engine.

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I just wish more people would actually give a new diesel a chance instead of being old fashioned and not liking change. Lack of change is detrimental to everything.
Weight to efficiency, diesels are WAY more efficient than gas engines.
Your mechanic might like the old suit case cell phones too if you asked.
And as another said, computers in diesel trucks, computers in gas trucks, computers in computers, they are here, not leaving, and are all expensive for the first few years.
.......
The first few ones came out 19 years ago that I know of. Again look at my response to the post above about the money.
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Old 06-04-2014, 08:16 AM   #92
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Many thanks to all of you who have shared your experiences and opinions.

We are being careful to only deal with dealerships who have actual diesel shops as part of their dealerships. We have found the dealerships for the various brands under consideration that deal with commercial/ professional diesel customers.

There is no getting away from the need for a diesel to tow any of the fifth wheels that interest us.

I had the opportunity to travel to a large dog event with our friends who have a 27 foot Jayco fifth wheel. They have a gas 2500 from several years ago (I do not know what year or size engine). They really wish they had bought a diesel. They carry a fair amount of heavy metal pens and crates for housing the dogs while on site at events. They also have a crew cab carefully fitted with crates to safely transport their dogs. They refuse to allow any of their dogs (small breed) to travel in the trailer itself.

I posted elsewhere about the terrible trailer fire that happened to another exhibitor on their way home from this event. According to the firemen in Arizona there was friction under the trailer from a broken suspension piece that caused a fire in the fifth wheel. When she arrived at her home and opened the door of the trailer it exploded in flames.

I guess this last information is getting off topic from the subject of tow vehicles except to mention that we want a crew cab to accommodate our small dog's crate while traveling.


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Old 06-05-2014, 01:30 AM   #93
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I guess this last information is getting off topic from the subject of tow vehicles except to mention that we want a crew cab to accommodate our small dog's crate while traveling.


Michele
I have to agree with your crew cab desires. I found a really nice, super clean, V10 gasser with low miles that I picked up for a song. But after driving 1700 miles with my kids on-boards, I had to face reality that my kids had simply outgrown the clubcab/ Quadcab concept.

The Dodge quad cabs are in fact the same size as the Dodge crewcabs (pre 2010). So I guess I just kept telling myself that it was just a doors issue (The quads had huge front doors, small quad doors. Newer, 03-10 trucks had smaller front doors bigger rear doors). But when compared to the older Ford Crew Cabs vs Dodge Quad Cab there is indeed a big difference. We looked, and looked, and looked for a crew cab gasser but just couldn't find any with low miles, or reasonably priced. Since most of the Ford Crew Cab gassers were priced at the 7.3 PS level we decided it was time to pick up another diesel as the Crew Cab was the ultimate goal. I ended up keeping the gasser V10 because it's so cool to have all that power... ha. Off the line, it leaves any diesel I've ever owned (including my bomb'd Dodge Cummins) in the dust.

I would've gladly gone with a GM Gasser in the 7.4L 454 setup, just so that I could get into a crewcab. But I couldn't find any. I was also told later that the GM CC is not as big as the Ford CC. I never checked to verify that. Once the price got high enough in the search, it was back into the 7.3 PS diesel all the way. So I'm not sure which camp I'm in now... diesel or gas.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:03 AM   #94
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One more thing to add. Dealers can be unscrupulous. Be very careful putting blind faith in them to stand by the product they represent. My neighbor has a 2013 (or maybe it's a 14?) Dodge Ram CTD. It has had the transmission replaced 3 times. Each time the vehicle is down for months due to parts shortage. One time the dealership put an extra 800 miles on his truck... without informing him.

I bought my mother a Cadillac last year. While driving down the freeway, the fan belt broke and it overheated somewhat. Cadillac has a auto-shutdown safety feature so the system shut the motor down once she slowed down. She had it towed to the dealer. I handle most of her auto expenses so the dealer calls to tell me the head was warped/ cracked and that it needed a new engine. $9,000 and a 3-6 month wait for parts!!! I quickly got on the Cadillac forums and did my homework. Long story short, it was a simple belt replacement. I got the car out of there immediately and told them not to touch it further. It has been running perfectly ever since. I called the manager and asked him why his service department so blatantly lied to me... and whether he would like to explain that to the state licensing board. He was profusely apologetic but that meant nothing to me. The damage to their reputation was done in my eyes. My father bought 5 Caddys from that dealer over the years. They lost a lifelong customer in an instant by one silly and ignorant attempt to fleece me. It didn't need a new engine at all. They simply lied to me to make money.

98.5-2000 model year Dodge Cummins owners discovered the dreaded "53-Block" issue with their trucks when the block started cracking. The dealer, Dodge and Cummins told them to pound Sand. 10 years later they were vindicated, somewhat, via a class action lawsuit.

Look at what GM is going through right now with the ignition switch scandal. I just saw CNN report that 12 executives are bing fired today because of it.

Then read online the consumer complaints about Ford: Top 220 Complaints and Reviews about Ford F-250/F-350

Point is, it's a treacherous world out there for truck owners. Be careful, do your homework, find a reputable, honest, mechanic who knows what he's doing. Don't be brand loyal for any reason. And above all else, remember, a truck has but one purpose, to pull or haul. So don't get too wrapped up in the looks of perception of your tow vehicle. Buy what works for your budget and for you mission.
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:00 AM   #95
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So cpt who is this "caddy" dealer we should stay away from?
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