Diesel vs. Gas Truck

[cptgregger]

Originally Posted by Billua

It all depends on what you are towing and where you are towing it...

Ex. In Florida, at sea level towing a 5,000 lb boat, gas all the way. Even a Toyota

In the mountains out West and towing at high altitudes and a 15K trailer?

Diesel all the way. The New Dodge Cummins/Aisin is a tough one. It was reworked in early 2013 and had some programming issues with the emissions. After that , they have been rock solid.

The Duramax/Allison is a proven combination.

Ford changes engines about as often as the ind changes. Time will tell with the new diesel, but it seems OK so far.

A friend of mine has been through 3 (yes THREE) transmissions in only 1300 miles in his new 2013 Dodge Cummins. From everything he was telling me, the Aisin absolutely sucks. Dodge has sent down engineers to figure out his truck but they're stumped. He is absolutely pissed. And there is a shortage of available transmissions because this is happening across the board to a lot of owners so it's not like it's a simple fix.

The dealer offered to buy him out under the lemon-law, and put him in an 8-spd after the second trans, but he said the 8 speeds are even more problematic.

I agree, the Duramax/ Allison is still the best combo out there. I wish Dodge would pull it's head out of the sand and start mating the Allison to the Cummins.

Unfortunately, diesel light trucks aren't what they use to be in terms of reliability. The new ones look super slick and the ft. lb of tq is awesome. But if you can't make it all work, what's the point of paying all that money?

Back to the OP's question... to each his own, but, for me anyway, it's all about value-for-money. If you don't mind spending $45-$50,000 for a new truck, then ABSOLUTELY go with diesel. You'll never come close to that kind of Torque in a gasser. But if you can find the right big-block set-up out there, at the right price, then you certainly be able to justify a gasser instead. They'll tow just fine. We don't all need to be flying 75 mph down the freeway.

Take my case, for example. I have a bombed out Cummins-powered Dodge Ram 3500, meaning I have added so much work in aftermarket components that it will tow Texas, Arkansas and Oklahoma put together... but I shipped it to Guam when I got transferred there. A lot of good that does me when I'm trying to tow a fiver or my boat come to visit my property in Texas, right? So I began the search for another diesel truck for my Stateside life. Since I live overseas, I can't justify paying for a $50-$60,000 truck that will spend 9 months a year in storage. And the used older diesels (the 5.9L Cummins or the 7.4L Powerstroke) have shot WAAAY up in value that I just can't justify paying $18-$20,000 for a 200,000 mile truck. Sure the diesel motor will last a million miles (if it was taken care of). But it's all the other components that will need to be replaced. Water and oil pumps, power steering pumps, vacuum pumps, suspension components, transmissions, clutches, HVAC systems. The list is so endless that in that case you may as well get into a brand new truck.

For me, I found a big block gasser for $4100 (I had set my budget to go as high as $9,000 for gas and $20K for a diesel... on the used market anyway). The interior of this truck was immaculate. The exterior was super clean as well. The mileage was low for the year/ make/ model. So it was a worthwhile plunge for a mission-oriented tow-vehicle. Sure it only gets 16 mpg on the HWY, and probably 8-10 towing but since I'm only using it to tow a FW on family trips, hey, that's the cost of doing business. So I put a 5 yr/ 100K warranty on it (another $2600) to at least somewhat protect my downside risk and viola! I'm done. Will it tow as much as today's diesels? Nope. But it will still tow a respectable 13,400 lbs. Since the GCWR is 19,000 those numbers would put me at zero payload but my FW is only 11,000 loaded up so I have plenty of room to play with and still be respectably under limitation.

Will I do 75 mph in the flats and 65 mph thru the hills? Nope. But I don't like towing a 5er at that speed anyway so speed wasn't an issue for me. I'm comfortable cruising along at 55-60. A lot less stress. But I'll admit that can add 1-2 hrs of driving onto a day if we need to cover some ground. If I need to go 70, I'm sure the truck will do it. But I travel with precious cargo (my little ones) so I simply plan ahead and keep in the slow lane (safety).

So while I'll pay way more in fuel than the diesels, I'm not taking a huge hit in depreciation and any mx issues are pretty straight forward (fingers crossed). Most people don't have $50,000 laying around for the purchase of a depreciating asset like a vehicle, so they end up financing... which makes the truck a lot more expensive in the over the term of the loan. Again, it's all about VFM. If you feel there's value in the money spent by going new, then by all means buy a diesel. But there are alternatives to the conventional diesel wisdom out there.

And this is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool, hard-core, diesel fan himself.

To get torque out of a gasser you have to rev higher, whereas a diesel would lose tq higher in the power curve. Some people aren't comfortable with reving an engine so they keep the OD on. NOT good for the transmission. It's simply not an issue for gas engines to rev higher (1,000 more rpm than normal) and they'll run like that all day long. When I tow I do so with the OD off. I hardly notice the louder rev at all, even with the stereo off. The manual says it's ok to tow in OD in the flats. I prefer to keep tranny temps down and tow with it off.

Now... all that said, if I were to use my truck as a daily driver or my main vehicle, keep it for a long time, and put a lot of miles on it, then I would definitely, without a doubt, get a diesel. The combo I would go with would be the Duramax/ Allison. That seems to be, consistently, most reliable matchup out there in terms of newer light trucks.

[onechaddude]

Originally Posted by cptgregger

A friend of mine has been through 3 (yes THREE) transmissions in only 1300 miles in his new 2013 Dodge Cummins. From everything he was telling me, the Aisin absolutely sucks. Dodge has sent down engineers to figure out his truck but they're stumped. He is absolutely pissed. And there is a shortage of available transmissions because this is happening across the board to a lot of owners so it's not like it's a simple fix.

The dealer offered to buy him out under the lemon-law, and put him in an 8-spd after the second trans, but he said the 8 speeds are even more problematic.

I agree, the Duramax/ Allison is still the best combo out there. I wish Dodge would pull it's head out of the sand and start mating the Allison to the Cummins.

Unfortunately, diesel light trucks aren't what they use to be in terms of reliability. The new ones look super slick and the ft. lb of tq is awesome. But if you can't make it all work, what's the point of paying all that money?

Back to the OP's question... to each his own, but, for me anyway, it's all about value-for-money. If you don't mind spending $45-$50,000 for a new truck, then ABSOLUTELY go with diesel. You'll never come close to that kind of Torque in a gasser. But if you can find the right big-block set-up out there, at the right price, then you certainly be able to justify a gasser instead. They'll tow just fine. We don't all need to be flying 75 mph down the freeway.

Take my case, for example. I have a bombed out Cummins-powered Dodge Ram 3500, meaning I have added so much work in aftermarket components that it will tow Texas, Arkansas and Oklahoma put together... but I shipped it to Guam when I got transferred there. A lot of good that does me when I'm trying to tow a fiver or my boat come to visit my property in Texas, right? So I began the search for another diesel truck for my Stateside life. Since I live overseas, I can't justify paying for a $50-$60,000 truck that will spend 9 months a year in storage. And the used older diesels (the 5.9L Cummins or the 7.4L Powerstroke) have shot WAAAY up in value that I just can't justify paying $18-$20,000 for a 200,000 mile truck. Sure the diesel motor will last a million miles (if it was taken care of). But it's all the other components that will need to be replaced. Water and oil pumps, power steering pumps, vacuum pumps, suspension components, transmissions, clutches, HVAC systems. The list is so endless that in that case you may as well get into a brand new truck.

For me, I found a big block gasser for $4100 (I had set my budget to go as high as $9,000 for gas and $20K for a diesel... on the used market anyway). The interior of this truck was immaculate. The exterior was super clean as well. The mileage was low for the year/ make/ model. So it was a worthwhile plunge for a mission-oriented tow-vehicle. Sure it only gets 16 mpg on the HWY, and probably 8-10 towing but since I'm only using it to tow a FW on family trips, hey, that's the cost of doing business. So I put a 5 yr/ 100K warranty on it (another $2600) to at least somewhat protect my downside risk and viola! I'm done. Will it tow as much as today's diesels? Nope. But it will still tow a respectable 13,400 lbs. Since the GCWR is 19,000 those numbers would put me at zero payload but my FW is only 11,000 loaded up so I have plenty of room to play with and still be respectably under limitation.

Will I do 75 mph in the flats and 65 mph thru the hills? Nope. But I don't like towing a 5er at that speed anyway so speed wasn't an issue for me. I'm comfortable cruising along at 55-60. A lot less stress. But I'll admit that can add 1-2 hrs of driving onto a day if we need to cover some ground. If I need to go 70, I'm sure the truck will do it. But I travel with precious cargo (my little ones) so I simply plan ahead and keep in the slow lane (safety).

So while I'll pay way more in fuel than the diesels, I'm not taking a huge hit in depreciation and any mx issues are pretty straight forward (fingers crossed). Most people don't have $50,000 laying around for the purchase of a depreciating asset like a vehicle, so they end up financing... which makes the truck a lot more expensive in the over the term of the loan. Again, it's all about VFM. If you feel there's value in the money spent by going new, then by all means buy a diesel. But there are alternatives to the conventional diesel wisdom out there.

And this is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool, hard-core, diesel fan himself.

To get torque out of a gasser you have to rev higher, whereas a diesel would lose tq higher in the power curve. Some people aren't comfortable with reving an engine so they keep the OD on. NOT good for the transmission. It's simply not an issue for gas engines to rev higher (1,000 more rpm than normal) and they'll run like that all day long. When I tow I do so with the OD off. I hardly notice the louder rev at all, even with the stereo off. The manual says it's ok to tow in OD in the flats. I prefer to keep tranny temps down and tow with it off.

Now... all that said, if I were to use my truck as a daily driver or my main vehicle, keep it for a long time, and put a lot of miles on it, then I would definitely, without a doubt, get a diesel. The combo I would go with would be the Duramax/ Allison. That seems to be, consistently, most reliable matchup out there in terms of newer light trucks.

Your friend must have something unique to his truck causing a problem. One of my best customers is a sales manager at local ram dealer and great friend of mine. His service dept claims the Aisin tranny has been bulletproof ever since it was introduced in 2008. Everyone claims the dodge trannys are weak and unreliable, I have drove ram truck since late 90's and never have had one problem with a tranny. I am a contractor and routinely pull 10-15 grand be it a backhoe or load of sand/gravel in dump trailer. I am not saying you can't have a problem with one of them, I'm just saying you can't say they "suck" because one person has had a problem. If that's the case, all Ford trucks must be really bad after 2003-2010 ford diesel truck problems.
I am not trying to stir the pot, just making a sensible statement.

Chad

[TXiceman]

Yes, the modern diesel has a lot of electronics, but they are a pleasure to drive. The new controls will give a old style diesel mechanic problems if they did not take the training over the years to stay current on the technical side of mechanics.

If the mechanic took the same approach to the modern gasoline engines, we would all have Old model T's with 4 cylinder engines.

Ken

[Cumminsfan]

Originally Posted by cptgregger

A friend of mine has been through 3 (yes THREE) transmissions in only 1300 miles in his new 2013 Dodge Cummins. From everything he was telling me, the Aisin absolutely sucks. Dodge has sent down engineers to figure out his truck but they're stumped. He is absolutely pissed. And there is a shortage of available transmissions because this is happening across the board to a lot of owners so it's not like it's a simple fix.

The dealer offered to buy him out under the lemon-law, and put him in an 8-spd after the second trans, but he said the 8 speeds are even more problematic.

I agree, the Duramax/ Allison is still the best combo out there. I wish Dodge would pull it's head out of the sand and start mating the Allison to the Cummins.

Unfortunately, diesel light trucks aren't what they use to be in terms of reliability. The new ones look super slick and the ft. lb of tq is awesome. But if you can't make it all work, what's the point of paying all that money?

Back to the OP's question... to each his own, but, for me anyway, it's all about value-for-money. If you don't mind spending $45-$50,000 for a new truck, then ABSOLUTELY go with diesel. You'll never come close to that kind of Torque in a gasser. But if you can find the right big-block set-up out there, at the right price, then you certainly be able to justify a gasser instead. They'll tow just fine. We don't all need to be flying 75 mph down the freeway.

Take my case, for example. I have a bombed out Cummins-powered Dodge Ram 3500, meaning I have added so much work in aftermarket components that it will tow Texas, Arkansas and Oklahoma put together... but I shipped it to Guam when I got transferred there. A lot of good that does me when I'm trying to tow a fiver or my boat come to visit my property in Texas, right? So I began the search for another diesel truck for my Stateside life. Since I live overseas, I can't justify paying for a $50-$60,000 truck that will spend 9 months a year in storage. And the used older diesels (the 5.9L Cummins or the 7.4L Powerstroke) have shot WAAAY up in value that I just can't justify paying $18-$20,000 for a 200,000 mile truck. Sure the diesel motor will last a million miles (if it was taken care of). But it's all the other components that will need to be replaced. Water and oil pumps, power steering pumps, vacuum pumps, suspension components, transmissions, clutches, HVAC systems. The list is so endless that in that case you may as well get into a brand new truck.

For me, I found a big block gasser for $4100 (I had set my budget to go as high as $9,000 for gas and $20K for a diesel... on the used market anyway). The interior of this truck was immaculate. The exterior was super clean as well. The mileage was low for the year/ make/ model. So it was a worthwhile plunge for a mission-oriented tow-vehicle. Sure it only gets 16 mpg on the HWY, and probably 8-10 towing but since I'm only using it to tow a FW on family trips, hey, that's the cost of doing business. So I put a 5 yr/ 100K warranty on it (another $2600) to at least somewhat protect my downside risk and viola! I'm done. Will it tow as much as today's diesels? Nope. But it will still tow a respectable 13,400 lbs. Since the GCWR is 19,000 those numbers would put me at zero payload but my FW is only 11,000 loaded up so I have plenty of room to play with and still be respectably under limitation.

Will I do 75 mph in the flats and 65 mph thru the hills? Nope. But I don't like towing a 5er at that speed anyway so speed wasn't an issue for me. I'm comfortable cruising along at 55-60. A lot less stress. But I'll admit that can add 1-2 hrs of driving onto a day if we need to cover some ground. If I need to go 70, I'm sure the truck will do it. But I travel with precious cargo (my little ones) so I simply plan ahead and keep in the slow lane (safety).

So while I'll pay way more in fuel than the diesels, I'm not taking a huge hit in depreciation and any mx issues are pretty straight forward (fingers crossed). Most people don't have $50,000 laying around for the purchase of a depreciating asset like a vehicle, so they end up financing... which makes the truck a lot more expensive in the over the term of the loan. Again, it's all about VFM. If you feel there's value in the money spent by going new, then by all means buy a diesel. But there are alternatives to the conventional diesel wisdom out there.

And this is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool, hard-core, diesel fan himself.

To get torque out of a gasser you have to rev higher, whereas a diesel would lose tq higher in the power curve. Some people aren't comfortable with reving an engine so they keep the OD on. NOT good for the transmission. It's simply not an issue for gas engines to rev higher (1,000 more rpm than normal) and they'll run like that all day long. When I tow I do so with the OD off. I hardly notice the louder rev at all, even with the stereo off. The manual says it's ok to tow in OD in the flats. I prefer to keep tranny temps down and tow with it off.

Now... all that said, if I were to use my truck as a daily driver or my main vehicle, keep it for a long time, and put a lot of miles on it, then I would definitely, without a doubt, get a diesel. The combo I would go with would be the Duramax/ Allison. That seems to be, consistently, most reliable matchup out there in terms of newer light trucks.

Why would your friend go from a 2500-3500 to a 1500? The 8sp is only in the 1500. Something's fishy here.

[rlwithrow]

Found this one on Craig's list, a little high priced but maybe will come down. Looks like a very nice medium weekend hauler that will last a long time for less than 1/2 the price of a new gasser and almost 1/3 the list of a new dually diesel.

Chevy PU 2500 HD LT 8.1 Liter engine

[CJBROWN]

Originally Posted by rlwithrow

Found this one on Craig's list, a little high priced but maybe will come down. Looks like a very nice medium weekend hauler that will last a long time for less than 1/2 the price of a new gasser and almost 1/3 the list of a new dually diesel.

Chevy PU 2500 HD LT 8.1 Liter engine

Wow, twenty grand. That's a nice truck though.

My '04 was a duramax with allison, had 67K - sold it for $22K a couple of years ago.

I have the 8.1 in my RV and a buddy has one in his chevy 3500 dually and it's a great motor. Quiet and powerful.

All of the diesels had problems - ford has had motor problems, dodge has always had trans problems - and the body falls apart. The cummins is a great motor, too bad you have to get it in a dodge.

The duramax is a much nicer truck, and they haven't had as many problems with them, the allison is the best. You really should go 2004-1/2 or newer because the LB7 motor all had bad injectors. That must have cost Bosche millions. GM extended the warranty to 7yr 200k but those will now all be out of warranty. So get the newer one and you're fine.

2004 gas would be a good one, but will be a gas hog. If you could get a '05 duramax it would be worth probably 25% more. And yes they get a lot better mileage than the 8.1. IMO it's probly worth more like $15K, maybe less. They are putting a huge premium on the miles - that's very low for a '04. If it's really a creampuff it might be worth it, certainly a lot less than a new one....oh wait, you can't get one.

[drewtk]

Originally Posted by dbear

Why would computer-controlled diesels be any more prone to expensive repairs than computer-controlled gassers?

You would think that would be the case, but modern diesels have more crap that can fail and they're also more sensitive. For example, modern diesels have

* Particulate filters to catch the smog, which need to burn diesel fuel to clean them out every few hundred miles. Fuel economy goes way down during the cleaning period.

* High pressure fuel pumps and fuel delivery systems that are VERY VERY VERY sensitive to bad fuel. As in $8K+ in repairs.

* Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) that must be added every few thousand miles. DEF is added to exhaust for emissions. I have a 2013 F250 diesel and my DEF pump needed to be replaced at 10K miles. Also, God forbid if you accidentally add DEF to your diesel tank and turn the engine on. Bye bye engine.

The vast majority of diesel owners don't have problems, but you also can't break what you don't have, and there's no denying that diesels have a lot of extra crap now because of emissions requirements.

[rlwithrow]

Originally Posted by CJBROWN

Wow, twenty grand. That's a nice truck though.

My '04 was a duramax with allison, had 67K - sold it for $22K a couple of years ago.

I have the 8.1 in my RV and a buddy has one in his chevy 3500 dually and it's a great motor. Quiet and powerful.

All of the diesels had problems - ford has had motor problems, dodge has always had trans problems - and the body falls apart. The cummins is a great motor, too bad you have to get it in a dodge.

The duramax is a much nicer truck, and they haven't had as many problems with them, the allison is the best. You really should go 2004-1/2 or newer because the LB7 motor all had bad injectors. That must have cost Bosche millions. GM extended the warranty to 7yr 200k but those will now all be out of warranty. So get the newer one and you're fine.

2004 gas would be a good one, but will be a gas hog. If you could get a '05 duramax it would be worth probably 25% more. And yes they get a lot better mileage than the 8.1. IMO it's probly worth more like $15K, maybe less. They are putting a huge premium on the miles - that's very low for a '04. If it's really a creampuff it might be worth it, certainly a lot less than a new one....oh wait, you can't get one.

Yes, $20,000 is a little high. I gave a little over $15,000 for my '03 with 50,716 miles on it more than a year ago and it's up to 54,340 now. If I could find a cherry '06 8.1 with the 6 speed Allison I'd jump on it! I did actually see an '07 with the 8.1 listed here locally after I got mine with 44,000 miles and they wanted $22,995 for it.

[TDI-Minnie]

As with anything, you need to take care of the automatic tranny. Avoid hard upshifts under full load (lift to shift) and let it lock up.
Or better yet, get a manual! They are cheaper, easy to service and putting in a new clutch is relatively simple.

Aside from a few questionable generations of the Powerstroke, all the "big three" diesels are good. Isuzu has got the Duramax very well sorted for GM. But Cummins is being driven into the HP and TQ war, which concerns me a bit. This is not good for reliability on any of them.

All of them should have the emissions stuff deleted ASAP, if you can. It's nothing but bad news. Just like on gas cars... Most/all of the Check Engine Lights you get are emissions related. It limits the engine below it's potential and reduces fuel economy. In the case of engines with EGR (exhaust gas recirculator) you are actually sucking the soot back through the intake. Scoring the cylinder walls and clogging the intake. Say goodbye to the days of the 350,000 mile diesel. :(

[Cumminsfan]

Originally Posted by TDI-Minnie

As with anything, you need to take care of the automatic tranny. Avoid hard upshifts under full load (lift to shift) and let it lock up.
Or better yet, get a manual! They are cheaper, easy to service and putting in a new clutch is relatively simple.

Aside from a few questionable generations of the Powerstroke, all the "big three" diesels are good. Isuzu has got the Duramax very well sorted for GM. But Cummins is being driven into the HP and TQ war, which concerns me a bit. This is not good for reliability on any of them.

All of them should have the emissions stuff deleted ASAP, if you can. It's nothing but bad news. Just like on gas cars... Most/all of the Check Engine Lights you get are emissions related. It limits the engine below it's potential and reduces fuel economy. In the case of engines with EGR (exhaust gas recirculator) you are actually sucking the soot back through the intake. Scoring the cylinder walls and clogging the intake. Say goodbye to the days of the 350,000 mile diesel. :(

Ya lets get rid of all that horrible emissions stuff so we can have air like they do in China.
China's air pollution leading to more erratic climate for US, say scientists | World news | theguardian.com

[jesilvas]

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan

Ya lets get rid of all that horrible emissions stuff so we can have air like they do in China.
China's air pollution leading to more erratic climate for US, say scientists | World news | theguardian.com

That's kind of a cover all statement, don't ya think? Why would all emissions controls be bad or good? Not all ideas are good.

DPFs for example are NOT the best idea. EGR, DOC, DPF, sure. Not bad, and helpful. DPFs don't really help. They make it "look cleaner", but then it all comes out anyway and you waste fuel. It's an effort to please those less knowledgeable, because what you don't see can't hurt you, right?

[rlwithrow]

I'm so tired of all this automotive pollution crap. No one seems to talk about all the airplanes and all the flights around the world that consume billions of gallons of fuel and discharge the exhaust directly into the upper atmosphere. I'll guess it's easier to make the individual little guy here on the ground to pay for everything.

[Cumminsfan]

Originally Posted by rlwithrow

I'm so tired of all this automotive pollution crap. No one seems to talk about all the airplanes and all the flights around the world that consume billions of gallons of fuel and discharge the exhaust directly into the upper atmosphere. I'll guess it's easier to make the individual little guy here on the ground to pay for everything.

So cause airplanes discharge pollutants then cars and factories should be able too? Not sure where that logic is going. You're saying that since some is not controlled then none should be controlled? A good example is to look at my previous link about the air quality in China. Is that what you really want the U.S to look like? No one likes all the emissions regulations but it's sure nice to look out over the horizon and see a nice view of a snow capped mountain.

If there weren't 317,000,000 people living here then you could get away with less emission controls.

[JohnBoyToo]

EVERY gas vs diesel turn into the same thing as the Ford vs Chevy or the which oil to use threads

Test drive all of them and find what YOU like, not what we like ....

I had those 'bad' ford diesels, but funny thing is I didn't have an issue with them and my new ford has one problem - IT'S TOO QUIET !!!

My background is big block exhaust rumble and I can hear and feel how strong the 400hp & 800 lbft torque STOCK engine IS, but the EPA exhaust sounds like a blow dryer :(