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Old 07-21-2003, 06:32 AM   #15
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Matt,
When a question like this comes I go to the source, the manufacturers of the top 5 or ten rated brands, and talk to their engineers. Why? Because there is as you said too much anecdotal information, and folks that sell an item giving the item manufacturer's research, which is always slanted.

I think this question deserves a solid answer, even beyond the five or ten folks that have here, and on other forums, stated categorically that the adapters damaged their rigs, and that they had to pay the expenses.

Rusty already pointed out that there were first hand answers on this thread. Also saying that ten data points out of the millions of RVs out there is not a good data set. There are far fewer gooseneck owners than regular hitch owners, and that subset of the whole, makes the few we have heard from, considering the numbers of RVrs that are not on the net, or read this or other RV forums, a significant number. But since the total is not known, I chose to go to the sources.

Here are the results of my researching this question just a few months ago.

I see the advantages a gooseneck would provide in having the truck bed instantly available on unhitching the rig. It is also a given that the extra length DOES increase stresses to the point trailer frames/pins/pin boxes have been damaged. I just saw some pics of a fiver and truck that had a head on collision with a semi, and thank goodness, they survived. But when I look at that hitch, that held the rig, and think about what would have happened had they had a gooseneck conversion on that rig, well, I honestly don't think it could have held.

Many of us spend a lot of money making upgrades to increase strength and durability, like suspension and axle upgrades, bigger brakes, performance improvements etc. I would hesitate to add an item that is "iffy" at best, and actually degrades strength and durability of our very expensive rigs, at worst.

What makes the difference in the stock trailers with goosenecks is that they are built specifically for the load geometry and stresses.
If I really wanted to go gooseneck, I'd consider ordering the trailer from a custom manufacturer with the frame built specifically for an OEM gooseneck that is built for that rig.

I know that some manufacturers are building gooseneck fivers with living quarters and a place for the horses or other animals behind the living quarters.

The industry frame manufacturers I have spoken to have advised that the only way to be sure would be to have it built before manufacture to the frame.

In checking with a few manufacturers of fivers and fiver frames, they consistently advise that you not use a gooseneck adapter with a stock fiver front frame because of the tremendous increase in torque forces from the added leverage. If you try to pick up a wood chair by the end of one leg with one hand, it is very difficult. But as you move closer to the center it becomes very easy. Same principle at work with the extended gooseneck adapter.

I talked with Bob up at the Arctic Fox Factory, who make one of the most robust and durable trailers on the market about the possibility of using a gooseneck adapter on one of their rigs, and he advised against it. However he did say that they have manufactured several of their fivers for use with a gooseneck adapter. It involves a lot of reinforcement from what I understand, but he did say that if given notice well before production of the trailer begins they can modify the front frame to safely withstand the greatly added torque of aftermarket gooseneck adapters. It is important to note that Arctic Fox fivers are noted for some of the highest payloads to empty weight ratios, biggest brakes, and heaviest duty suspensions/frames for their size and class. Because of that they have a designation as an "RV Trekker" classification in the RV Consumer Group Rating book. They are the only brand in that class, they are the only brand in that class, which means the strength to handle rougher roads and terrain than other types of trailers can handle. And even they do not recommend using a gooseneck adapter without extensive reinforcement during production.

IMHO those are the only alternatives to get the obvious advantages of the gooseneck, and have the frame and hitch certain to be equal to the task, with a good margin of safety.

More info
I talked to the engineers and/or factory reps of the top manufacturers of fivers to get a good feel for their feelings on this issue. I asked them each two questions. The first question was "do you recommend, or do not recommend using a gooseneck adapter on one of your fifth wheel trailers?" The second question was "do you make a fifth wheel trailer with a gooseneck as a special order, or have any provisions for adding a gooseneck adapter?"

Here is what the top manufacturers in my opinion had to say.

I talked to Bob at Travel Supreme, and he said that they do not recommend using a gooseneck converter with their trailers as built for a fiver hitch.

I talked to Ken at New Horizons, and they do not recommend using an aftermarket gooseneck converter with one of their trailers that are designed for the 5th wheel hitch. However, he did also add that if you want a gooseneck, New Horizons has made them, and will be happy to make your trailer with a gooseneck hitch that will meet all of their safety and quality criteria on special order.

I talked to Don at Automate, and they do not recommend that an aftermarket adapter be used with one of their trailers designed for 5th wheel hitches, but that they will build one with a gooseneck if desired.

From Marion Johnson at Teton: They do not recommend using a gooseneck adapter with one of their trailers designed as a 5th wheel because of the added torque that must be resisted.

The folks at Excel will answer on Monday, as their folks were gone at 5 PM on a Friday! Duh? I can say that Brian at Excel does not recommend the bolt on converters with their trailers. We are just waiting for their possible workaround.

So for a fairly good survey of the experts and engineers, from what I consider to be the top manufacturers, that is the real skinny.

RV

[This message was edited by RV Roadie on Mon July 21 2003 at 10:47 AM.]
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:15 PM   #16
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In my situation i called Venture Welding who built my 5er frame. My pin box is in the highest setting possible. I have a 14" gooseneck adapter on it. If this trailer was on a really low truck i could literally slide my pinbox down over 10 inches to meet with a regular 5er hitch. So i have only added 4 inches to the lowest setting of the pinbox that is set by the manufacturer. He gave me the OK 3 years go and i empasise that i have used it for over 40,000 miles and on some very rough off road trails in Montana without ANY issues. That said all trailers are different. Mine is totally 2x5" 3/16 box frame in the front. NO c-channel at all.

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Old 07-22-2003, 04:33 AM   #17
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mjstef,
You did it right. Many folks will not call the trailer manufacturer to get the info that they need. I am sure there are some rigs that have the additional gusseting and framework when building for an adustable pinbox. However many with non-adjustable pinboxes and those like mine cannot withstand tha additional forces which are mutiplied even by four inches of extension beyond the max. My current rig with no gooseneck adapter, and with the pinbox set at the max extension, which is ony about 4 inches on my box, rides perfectly on my truck and hitch. It still developed a crack on the side front, right where the frame for the overhang meets the main frame. And that was with no rough roads.

My previous rig had the whole frame bent, when a trailer repair place did a simple relocation of my axle from above the springs to below them to raise the traier enough to switch from 15 inch to 16 inch tires and rims. The reason we were raising it and changing tire size was that HitchHiker, and Young's welding who built the frame, recommended the extra weight rating as all that was needed to use a scooter rack on the rear for a Honda motoscooter. The dealer who totaled my very custom rig only put jack stands at the rear of the fully loaded trailer, then without wheels or axles under neath to support the majority of the weight, supported the whole front of the trailer by the pinbox with a forklift that had a fiver pin collar welded for the front. It was what they used to move the trailers around their lot. Being fulltimers we were there for the whole process. They dropped the trailer twice almost to the ground, as the forklift had a knob that was turned to lower, similar to a floor jack. The operator "caught it a few inches from the ground. The front landing gear had been removed so that it could be lowered more. The trailer dropped about two feet each time.

If you examine the axles on a trailer you'll see that they do not add up to the GVWR of most standard rigs. The remaining weight is on the front pin. Added together they total the GVWR or very close. That of course is except for those with heavy duty suspensions ordered or added. Since the front frame of that rig was rated at only 2000 pounds, and not designed for the full trailer weight loaded or even half of it, it turned out that the front corners ripped apart, and all of the front interior walls had separated by a half inch at all corners. To repair it would involve a complete disassembly of the trailer so it was totaled by the insurance company, and we ended up with a trailer of lesser quality.

Not the same thing, but a good example of what can happen when stresses are multiplied beyond what the engineers designed it to withstand. That was not the fault of the frame or the trailer manufacturer.

If a trailer manufacturer says that it will not work without additional gusseting, they may deny warranty for any damage that occurs. On the other hand, if a manufacturer says that their product will handle the gooseneck, I would get that in writing from the trailer manufacturer to avoid any possible problem with the warranty in the future.

More to the point, I would also ask for a written statement from the gooseneck adapter manufacturer and/or the dealer that they would be liable for any frame damage from normal use. Not just breakage or failure of the gooseneck adapter. If either or both manufacturers refuse to take that risk, with the investment I have, I certainly wouldn't take the risk either! Is that unreasonable? I think not. The manufacturer of the frames works with the trailer manufacturer right? They design for the end product. All that it would take is for the gooseneck manufacturer to get with the factories, do tests, and state that their adapter is approved for use with the following trailers/manufacturer brands. Then and only then would the RVr be protected.

All trailers ARE different, as you said. As I did, and you did, I strongly urge the RVrs out there to contact their manufacturers directly when considering any change to engineered torque and stress tolerances and drastic weight changes. Whether adding a gooseneck adapter, or a motorcycle carrier at the rear, the frame may be affected, and while some can handle it, others cannot. That does not make it bad engineering, just that it does what it was designed to do.

Working with a manufacturer, mods and add-ons can be done safely and with full confidence in the results. As well, doing the research before buying also allows the option of having one built for the specs to meet your needs/wants, or knowing that it will already handle the intended uses/add-ons. The salesman is not the source for those answers and determinations, as in some cases, will say yes to anything to make the sale, as opoosed to the honest and knowledgable sales people out there.

I wasn't saying why folks can't have a gooseneck, but how they can. They may get the green light from their manufacturer as you did. I would still get it in writing. Not because I don't trust them, but if the answer is indeed yes, then they should have no problem with a memo, to remind both of the conversation. If unwilling, that alone speaks volumes.

I did the research to find out how I could use one. I love the idea of just a ball in the bed! Thus my research. I provided the names of the people at each manufacturer so the info could be checked. Additionally I asked for, and received, permission to quote them and use their names in an article for publication online and off. And, as you saw in the better brands above, or many others like yours, there are ways to safely have your gooseneck, and use it too!

RV

[This message was edited by RV Roadie on Tue July 22 2003 at 09:19 AM.]
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Old 07-28-2003, 10:21 AM   #18
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I sent Nash Mfg an email regarding this issue as we pull our 30' with a gooseneck adapter also. I got a call back from Cody and he said that this would be no problem for the trailer. We may go ahead and have the rails installed for the 5th wheel attachment, will have to look at the costs.

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Old 07-28-2003, 11:24 AM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tandj:
I got a call back from Cody and he said that this would be no problem for the trailer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this "Cody" associated with "Cody Hitch", the manufacturer of the "Cody Coupler" gooseneck adapter, or is "Cody" associated with Nash/Arctic Fox? If he's with Nash/Arctic Fox, there's a disconnect between his recommendation and that received by RV Roadie as follows:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I talked with Bob up at the Arctic Fox Factory, who make one of the most robust and durable trailers on the market about the possibility of using a gooseneck adapter on one of their rigs, and he advised against it. However he did say that they have manufactured several of their fivers for use with a gooseneck adapter. It involves a lot of reinforcement from what I understand, but he did say that if given notice well before production of the trailer begins they can modify the front frame to safely withstand the greatly added torque of aftermarket gooseneck adapters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Cody Coupler site has some interesting comments regarding their own gooseneck to 5th wheel adapter. Among them are:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A word of caution is in order about the use of the Cody Coupler! Because of its design, additional pressure may be placed on the "King Pin" of the trailer it is mounted on. This is a result of the leveraging action involved. Because of this, we feel it is wise to mention several steps that should be taken by the owner of such a rig. These are "common sense" suggestions that could and should apply to any type of trailer hook-up.

REGULARLY INSPECT THE INSTALLATION OF THE COUPLER
Make certain the "King Pin" is securely attached to the Pin Box. Occasionally, additional reinforcement might be advisable. (emphasis mine)

AVOID THE "POP-A-WHEELY SYNDROME"
Smooth, even starts and stops are always better than the jerky motion.

TRAILER BRAKES SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN GOOD WORKING ORDER!
And properly hooked up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could this have anything to do with the 5th wheel versus gooseneck frame design differences that have been previously discussed?

Rusty

[This message was edited by RustyJC on Mon July 28 2003 at 03:50 PM.]
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:34 PM   #20
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Duh, I think this is what has been a caution all along. A lot of the trailers just don't have the beef in them to be pulled like a GN.

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Old 07-28-2003, 01:57 PM   #21
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Reminds me of driving my MG Midget, back when, on a country road here in the South. Beautiful sunny day, and the gravel was flying. I was having a wonderful time, giving it all it could handle, when I came upon a man by the side of the road. As I passed him he hollered at me "PIG!" "PIG!" Face all screwed up and red!

The nerve of him I thought. Calling me a pig! He didn't even know me! Who does he think he is!

As I got madder I floored it around the curve . . . and hit the pig.

He tried to warn me about the pig in the road!

He was really trying to help me. I just didn't hear what he was really trying to tell me. He knew what was up ahead, having just come from there. I didn't.

Here on these forums, all we can do is try to warn them when there is a pig in the road. Some will be going too fast, not understand, and hit the pig anyway.

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Old 07-29-2003, 12:32 PM   #22
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mjstef;
This is a bit delayed, I just haven't read this page for awhile, but have two comments regarding your recent posts.
1. I am one who personally suffered great damage to my fiver using a 14" Cody adapter
2. My fiver frame was a double box frame, i.e. one box welded on top of the other.
The problem was not with the strength of the frame, the welds holding the pin box to the frame were simply torn from the metal of the box; in places there was a "hole" in the frame where the weld was torn out, in other areas there was a part of the pin box metal torn from the pin box.
My set up seemed to be doing fine till I hit a particularly wavy/bouncy section of highway in Northeastern Calif. It did not take much of that to create the problem.

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Old 08-04-2003, 07:47 AM   #23
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Well I did send the email to Nash Manufacturing so I would think they would not reroute a question on their trailer to someone else. I have spoken to Cody twice now on questions on my trailer and he seems very knowledgeable but of course I will keep an eye on the hitch as I would even if it was the standard 5th wheel set up.

Joy

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Old 08-04-2003, 08:10 AM   #24
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It's your RV and your business, but if this "Cody" is employed by Nash and has OKed the use of the gooseneck adapter, I'd suggest getting Cody to put it in writing on Nash's letterhead. You may well need documentation of Nash's authorization down the road!

JM2CW

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Old 08-04-2003, 08:26 AM   #25
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Hi Tandj or Joy and tj,
I have read your posts and am glad that you are not experiencing any problems with the gooseneck yet. But I would like to know what Nash did say in reply to your email, perhaps that is what has confused me and Rusty. In your posts you referred to sending an email to Nash, but never said what their reply was, yea or nay? You did tell us what the Gooseneck manufacturer said however, thus the confusion. If you might have lost the email, Nash, which is manufactured by Northwood, can be easily and immediatly reached at their toll free number, to double check, at 1-800-766-6274. Great company, with a great product! You made a wise choice getting a Nash in my opinion.

I just called again and spoke to Bob at Nash. He reiterated that Nash does not recommend using any type of extension or gooseneck adapter on their trailers, unless that trailer's frame has been specifically strengthened before manufacture, by special order, due to the tremendous additional torque that they put on the frame. It is well known that their frames are among the strongest in the industry. That is why I included them in my survey.

My point here is not to be right Joy and tj. You have a Nash, and somehow got some bad information. While you may never have a problem, the manufacturer thinks you very well might. I am concerned for your rig too, as well as getting the straight skinny from the source out to the members here.

If you choose to take that risk, I have no problem with that, as it is none of my business what decisions anybody makes with their rigs. I take calculated risks once I have all the information in hand too. But if you are taking that risk thinking Nash said it was fine, better check again.

If you choose to take that risk knowing Nash says no, and accept all the liabilities that decision may entail, that is fine too. Your risk, and you might never have a problem! But at least you made it with all the facts in hand, not just the facts from the aftermarket folks from Cody, who do not engineer, or manufacture the frames for Nash. I am sure they are a great bunch of people too, and make a great product, when used on rigs that the manufacturer approves for goosenecks, or one that has been engineered for one.

Now that we know that Nash says no, and you have told us that Cody says that it is fine, there is only one question left to ask. Will Cody put in writing that they will pay for any repairs to your sidewalls, frame, or any other incidental damage to your trailer if it does indeed stress the rig beyond its design limits, to the point of breakage. Then check with Nash, same question. Then after you find who will be liable for repairs/damage, any decision won't cause a possible very expensive surprise down the road. Cody very well might put that in writing. Pac Brake does if a manufacturer claims their exhaust brake cause a problem. They will send their own lawyers to argue the case at their expense, and after they prove it was the truck manufacturer, you can collect the repair cost or easily prevail in litigation. Northwood may cover you too. Or you may be on your own. I have no idea what those answers will be, but were it me, I would certainly ask them and follow through on it.

That protects you.

My goal from the start was to clarify that folks CAN have a gooseneck, and how!

You check with the engineers at the factory first, and have the frame reinforced to support that hitch type. Or to get the OK in writing from the factory, if they say that their frame can tolerate a gooseneck extension stock from the factory.

That way you are covered if the frame or sidewalls start to crack or break, as happens with them on some rigs.

Safe Travels!

RV

[This message was edited by RV Roadie on Mon August 04 2003 at 01:11 PM.]
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Old 08-04-2003, 09:38 AM   #26
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Cody is in the Service department at Nash. I have never spoke with anyone at the hitch manufacturer as I need my answers from Nash directly. Do you know which facility Bob is at? I called the one in the Pacific Northwest as that is where my trailer was manufactured. Maybe the people at Nash need to get together as there seems to be a disconnect. I did send an email to Nash and Cody called me back the next day from Nash. I had already talked to him the week previous about getting the wiring schematic for my specific trailer and he gladly faxed it to me.

Joy

Happy Trails,

Joy

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Old 08-04-2003, 10:33 AM   #27
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Joy!
Thanks for the clarification! Yes, I just found out that Cody is employed by Nash. There is a hitch manufacturer named Cody too, thus our confusion. I just got off the phone with Bob again on that toll free number above. I strongly suggest you call it and check with him. Bob has been with Nash since day one. I know there is a disconnect if you did not order your trailer reinforced for a gooseneck adapter, or did not order their extender thingamajig ( I wasn't clear on that, Bob mentioned it, it wasn't on topic anyway.) You may have a special unit or not.

Call Bob, and get it from the "big guy" first hand. Let us know how you make out.

Looks like you're just one toll free call away from knowing. for sure.

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Old 08-06-2003, 12:03 PM   #28
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Joy,
Did you ever resolve the disconnect between you and Nash? I certainly hope it came out OK.

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