Community Forums

Mark Grillo · 06-03-2008, 12:22 PM

I've read alot of great information on towing vehicles and 5er's. I am convinced that my 1/2 ton truck with HD trailering, towing, 5.3 liter, etc,(GMC)is not a good tow vehicle for the 5er I want. It is a short bed and a step side. But the 5er i want is not a huge 30 -35 foot weighing 10,500lbs. It is a 27' to 30' weighing 7500lbs to 8500lbs. Wouldn't a GMC 2500 reg cab, long bed, with a 6.0 be more than sufficient? I am trying to do the right thing and find the 5er first and the tow vehicle second. My choices are the Keystone Laredo 265RL or the Forrest River Wildcat 28 RKBS. The calculator that everyone is talking about is ok but is hard to find some of the values.

Mark Grillo · 06-03-2008, 12:22 PM

I've read alot of great information on towing vehicles and 5er's. I am convinced that my 1/2 ton truck with HD trailering, towing, 5.3 liter, etc,(GMC)is not a good tow vehicle for the 5er I want. It is a short bed and a step side. But the 5er i want is not a huge 30 -35 foot weighing 10,500lbs. It is a 27' to 30' weighing 7500lbs to 8500lbs. Wouldn't a GMC 2500 reg cab, long bed, with a 6.0 be more than sufficient? I am trying to do the right thing and find the 5er first and the tow vehicle second. My choices are the Keystone Laredo 265RL or the Forrest River Wildcat 28 RKBS. The calculator that everyone is talking about is ok but is hard to find some of the values.

Roam America · 06-03-2008, 02:23 PM

you are going about this the right way. figure out the 5er you want first then get the correct truck.

Use the GVWR of the 5er in your calculations for determining the correct truck. I would only speculate that a 5er quickly overloads a 3/4 truck.

Consider that you can get a SRW 1 ton truck that would most likely be a better choice and it would not be any more difficult to maneuver than a 3/4 ton. While a dually provides more stability towing, I can understand when someone does not want a dually as a daily driver.

JIMNLIN · 06-03-2008, 03:52 PM

yeah a 1500 5.3 isn't enough truck for a 27'-30' 5er.
The 2500 with the 6.0 smallblock is doable at the weights you gave. If those are dry weights the actual road ready weight after loading may well be closer to the trailers GVWR. Need your trucks GVWR/RAWR and the trailers GVWR for a specific recommendation

450Donn · 06-04-2008, 04:57 AM

OK, first to a misconceptions. A 35 foot fiver will weight closer to 14000 than 10000 pounds. When looking at any RV one MUST consider the trailers GVWR. Dry weights as I suspect you are stating ate a figment of some idiots marketing ideas and get a lot of people into a lot of trouble in a real hurry. For the real world, a 3/4 ton 4X2 diesel pickup will have a net cargo carrying capacity of around 1600 to 2000 pounds at most. That will include people other than the 150 pound driver, fuel, dogs, fire wood, generators, tools, basically everything you would load into/onto it to go camping with. AND that also includes whatever pin weight your fiver has. With me so far? Good! Now, this is where it get confusing. People on these forums will chime in and tell you that you can pull any trailer out there with a 3/4 ton truck. Well from first hand experience I can tell you that you might be able to get the load rolling and stop OK, but when you hit a curvy section of road, or the mountains that is when the problems start. If you want to do it right the first time, Look only at the trucks GVWR and load no more than 80% of that number. Now to get there is the hard part. Again, depending on the truck you choose and it's configuration, a 3/4 ton can weigh ready to camp 7500 pounds or so. With a 9000/9200 GVWR you can see that there is really little room left for pin weight. Might want to consider a 1 ton SRW pickup instead. Cost might be less depending on your geographic location. And you gain some extra cargo carrying capacity. I see that you are considering a regular cab 6L gasser. Why? The regular cab has no room for extras IMHO. And with an extra cab you have a place for more stuff. Now, to the fivers you are looking at. What is their GVWR's? To get a fairly good estimate of pin weight take 20% of the fivers GVWR. Remember too that a fifth wheel will have a large frontal area that takes more away from performance than most anything else. The 6.0L is a good motor and there are lots of people who claim that it pulls their trailer just fine. And for them it might, and they are satisfied with pulling a long grade at 5000 RPM in second gear. But I personally am not satisfied with that kind of performance. If that is what you really want then consider keeping your trailers GVWR rating under 9000 pounds. It will yield a much more satisfying overall experience in the end. If your trailer goes over 1000 GVWR them consider a 1 ton diesel, or at the very least maybe a V10 Ford 1 ton pickup.

Mark Grillo · 06-04-2008, 05:32 AM

Donn,

I printed out your response this morning and have read it three times, somthing clicked and I think I understand a few things better. Here goes. The pin weight that you are adding to the the trucks gvwr is the crucial part because the dry weight of the camper does not take into account all the stuff that is loaded "into" the the camper and you must take that overall fiqure and then take 20% of that to add as pin weight to the trucks GVWR, right? So if the dry weight of the Wildcat is 8415 lbs and you add 2000 lbs of gear (10415 lbs) and then take 20% of that, it is 2083 lbs of pin weight. With the example you used on the 3/4 ton loaded with all "it's" camping gear at 7500 lbs and the pin weight of 2083 lbs you now have a gvwr on the truck of 9583. You are past the GVWR of the truck which had a value of 9000/9200. Am I starting to grasp?

Mark Grillo · 06-04-2008, 05:35 AM

Don,
One other question. when I went into the brochure and got the dry weight of the 5er, there was also a GVWR rating of the trailer too. What is that all about?

LindaH · 06-04-2008, 05:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mark Grillo:
One other question. when I went into the brochure and got the dry weight of the 5er, there was also a GVWR rating of the trailer too. What is that all about? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The GVWR is the most the trailer can weigh once you've filled up the fresh water tank, the propane tanks, and loaded all your "stuff" into it.

As Don and others have pointed out, forget about the fiver's dry weight -- unless, of course, you're planning on pulling a totally empty trailer.

Dry weight is a meaningless number. For one thing, the published dry weights that you see in brochures are for a stripped vehicle with no options. Once you start adding microwaves, air conditioners, and other options, the fiver is going to weigh more than its published dry weight...maybe a lot more. *AND* the published dry weight also doesn't take into account dealer-added options.

So, instead of dry weight, do all of your calculations using the fiver's GVWR. As long as you get a truck that will handle the fiver's GVWR (and resulting 20% of GVWR for the pin weight), you'll do OK.

450Donn · 06-04-2008, 05:59 AM

Mark,
BINGO!!!
You have now discovered the trap many Rcers have fallen into.
I will use my own experiences for you.
2500HD Duramax/Allison 4X4 extended cab. Loaded ready to camp 7500 pounds minus the trailer. Load the trailer on and it scaled 10,500 pounds. All this on a truck that has a manufacturers GVWR of 9200 pounds. The fiver is a 325 foot Cedar Creek, that weighs 10,350 ready to roll, hitched. That means that I have a fiver that is 13,250 pounds Ready to camp with a 13,500 pound GVWR. The brochure stated a 1650 pin weight and I have an actual pin of 3000 pounds.
Like I have said before and will continue to say, "dry" weight is a figment of some ones imaganitation and has nothing to do with the real world. That is why I always tell prospective buyers to look at the trailers GVWR and go from there.

A fivers pin weight is added to the trucks ready to camp weight. So for any given truck you add all the stuff/people/dogs/tools and 250 pounds for the hitch and come up with a ready to camp weight. To this you add the calculated pin weight and that will be close to your true down the road weight for the truck. In other words, cargo carrying capacity is EVERYTHING you might add to the truck and it IMHO should not exceed the trucks GVWR.
Your last question,
The trailers GVWR is the maximum weight including pin weight that the trailer can weigh according to the manufacturer. This is generally a design thing based on frame strength and axle/tire specs.. So, using my trailer as an example. I know it has a GVWR of 13,500 pounds. IF I take my scaled on the axles weight of 10,350 and add the 3000 that I know is pin weight I have a ready to go total weight of 13,350 pounds. Always work from the trailers GVWR number and there will be no surprises the first time across the scales.

Not trying to confuse you and I by no means am an expert. But this is all from my personal experiences
IF you were to get a regular cab long bed 4X2 Chevy with the 6.0L gas motor, your loaded including hitch your trucks weight would likely be in the range of 6000/6500 pounds. With a GVWR of 9200 pounds you would probably have sufficient cargo carrying capacity to haul a 10000 pound fiver with 2500 pin weight. My brother has that same truck except his is a 4X4. He pulled his first fiver just fine at 22 feet and a low profile. When he moved up to a 25 footer he hated the towing experience and actually towed it maybe half a dozen times before he sold it and bought a mini camper. He will not admit it, but I firmly believe that he was not satisfied with the towing experience.

I do not know your situation, but I for one like the extra room inside the extended cab trucks and the extra length does not bother me much. But, pick what you believe you want and be happy.
Don

TXiceman · 06-04-2008, 08:22 AM

To summarize the whole thing...
Weigh your truck with full passengers, fuel, hitch and normal camping supplied...call this the Laden Vehicel weight or LVW.

The door jamb sticker will lsit the trucks GVWR and the owners manual will list a GCWR for you particular engine/cab/axle ratio.

GCWR - LVW = maximum loaded trailer weight.
GVWR - LVW = maximum loaded trailer pin weight.

Most 5ers will have a pin weight that is close to 20% of the GVWr once loaded...within a couple of percentage either way...18% to 22%.

As noted above the big "lie" that the truck manufacturers make is the tow rating on a 3/4 ton truck. Yes, it can tow the weight, but can not carry the pin weight of the larger 5ers. What people do not see if the tiny print foot note on the tow raring which basically says it is a maximum weight and the owner should not exceed eith the trucks GVWR, GCWR or the axle GAWR. The gotcha' on the 3/4 ton truck is the lower GVWR.

Ken

Mark Grillo · 06-04-2008, 12:07 PM

Today I called on the New GMC I was going to buy. It was a 3/4 ton 4x4 with a 6.0. The GVWR was 9200 minus the curb weight of 5308 = 3892 as payload. For me, my pass, firewood, tools, hitch, beer, (just kidding) I came up with 1500 lbs. Subtract the 1500# from the payload of 3892 leaves only 2392# left to go for pin weight. If I take the GVWR of the 5er which is 11750, and take 20%, which is 2350#, and subtract: (2392 left of GVWR)- (2350 of pin weight) I'm at 42 lbs under the GVWR of the truck. Am I correct in that calculation? If so the 3/4 ton is not enough if one wants wiggle room?

450Donn · 06-04-2008, 12:50 PM

Mark,
your calculations are right as far as they go. What you are missing is that the weight the dealers is telling you for that truck is likely under what it will actually weigh when you get it home. My personal recommendation, get a 1 ton SRW. I think you would be much happier and likely it would be a bit less money. You also did not add the hitch weight did you? Maybe you can get the dealer to loan you a similar truck for a quick trip to the local scales to verify the weight? What is the listed Gross combined weight rating for that truck? 20K? IF so you will be rogit at or a bit over with the trailers GVWR of 11,750 and the trucks GVWR of 9200.

TXiceman · 06-04-2008, 04:39 PM

I would not trust the curb until it was actually weighed. But basically you are doing it correctly. If you watched your weight and keep the trailer and passengers on a dies, it is doable. You will right at your limits.

Ken

Mark Grillo · 06-05-2008, 03:26 AM

Last night went over to state of RI, I'm from CT. Big truck dealer. Looked at a 3500, 4 door, with an 8 foot box, holy sh--. That was big, and a big price tag too! 52K with all the buttons. Gonna look around for an extended cab with an 8 foot box 1ton. If they make such a thing. There were a lot of warnings or concerns on here about short bed and fifth wheel hitches, sliders, etc. Let you guys know how I made out. Do any of you have the slide hitch in a short bed? Thanks