Gas motor future

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by dbear

I didn't find any info on Tier 5, just Tier 4 Final which is supposed to be happening now. The major difference between Tier 4 Interim and Final is that NOx emissions are to drop from 2.0 grams per kilowatt-hour to 0.4 g/kW-hr.

That's the primary reason that the 2013/2014 Ram pickups moved from the NOx adsorber to SCR technology (use of DEF) and why DEF consumption will increase on the newer diesels.

Diesels are favored in Europe because their emissions regulations center on greenhouse gases - CO and CO2. Since diesels get better fuel economy, they consume less fuel (carbon) and produce less CO/CO2. US EPA regulations, on the other hand, center on smog precursors (NOx) as well as particulates, and that's where the diesel is at a disadvantage. For heavy towing, though, I've done it with both big gasoline (8.0L V-10) and diesel engines, and as far as I'm concerned, the diesel has that battle won hands down - I'll go with the diesel every time.

Rusty

[Rhagfo]

Originally Posted by rlwithrow

Looks like the big 3 are coming out with some larger gas motors. Is this going to be a trend in the future? With the cost of a new diesel and the price of fuel, will the big gas truck make a come back for the less than heavy duty service needs for some of the mid sized campers? I have an 8.1 with 54,000 miles and I think it does a great job with my 29 foot 5th wheel!

I would think that the EPA and mileage requirement would be a road block to that.

When I can replace a gas hog F250 460ci, with a 5.9 Cummins (360 ci) diesel that pulls stronger, and gets twice the mileage, it was a no brainer.

I pull 11,000# with about 260 to 270 HP and about 560 lb. ft. of torque, with 3.55 gears and maintain speed on all highway grades. It would be interesting to pull this with a new Cummins 6.7 and see how much better it would be.

[gggplaya]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

That's the primary reason that the 2013/2014 Ram pickups moved from the NOx adsorber to SCR technology (use of DEF) and why DEF consumption will increase on the newer diesels.

Diesels are favored in Europe because their emissions regulations center on greenhouse gases - CO and CO2. Since diesels get better fuel economy, they consume less fuel (carbon) and produce less CO/CO2. US EPA regulations, on the other hand, center on smog precursors (NOx) as well as particulates, and that's where the diesel is at a disadvantage.

Rusty

That's all changing in Europe as well with Euro 6 emissions. Euro 6 and Tier4 final are pretty close to the point where manufacturers can now(2015-2016) sell the same engine designs across the ocean unlike before where different designs and aftertreatment systems were needed.

Europe has other issues where car taxes are getting rediculous and now based on vehicle emissions. These taxes are payed yearly with registration, and people don't want to own used diesel vehicles. So now, new car buyers are about 50/50 between buying a gas vs a diesel engine.

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by gggplaya

So now, new car buyers are about 50/50 between buying a gas vs a diesel engine.

Still quite a different mix for light passenger vehicles than we see in the U.S., right? Personally, I think diesels may become a greater part of the mix in the U.S. in the future due to CAFE requirements - witness Audi's introduction of new diesel models, the 3.0L turbodiesel in the Grand Cherokee and Ram 1500, Mazda's new diesels, introduction of a diesel Chevy Cruize (sp), etc.

Rusty

[George Schweikle]

No one doubts the pulling power of Diesels, but your comparison is not appropriate. The Ford 460 has not been produced for many years. Current gas engines have variable cam timing, direct injection into combustion chambers, variable turbochargers, etc. and the PZEV (Partial Zero Emission Vehicles) are absolutely "cleaner" than the latest Diesels.

I think there are different reasons for using either gas or diesel. Size, cost, length of use, etc. Your needs may be different than mine, and your solution is likely different than mine. There is not one overall answer.

Originally Posted by Rhagfo

...When I can replace a gas hog F250 460ci, with a 5.9 Cummins (360 ci) diesel that pulls stronger, and gets twice the mileage, it was a no brainer....

[rlwithrow]

I'd like to see a cost per mile overall comparison between a modern turbo large motor gas truck and a comparable diesel. Say the new Dodge with the 6.4 with a turbo and their own diesel over a 100,000 mile duration pulling a 10,000 pound trailer. This would include the purchase price, all maintenance and repair and fuel costs. I'm going to guess they wouldn't be that far apart. That said, if I'm getting 8 mpg and my friend with a similar sized 5th wheel is getting 11 with his diesel,, what really is the point or the difference in cost to own besides trade in value in the end.

[RustyJC]

The diesel option will pay for itself (at least here in Texas) over a gas engine at the time of sale or trade-in. In the meantime, one has the advantages of better fuel economy and much better towing performance. Can you cite a "modern turbo large motor gas truck", by the way? I'm not aware of any with which one could make an actual comparison.

Rusty

[rlwithrow]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

The diesel option will pay for itself (at least here in Texas) over a gas engine at the time of sale or trade-in. In the meantime, one has the advantages of better fuel economy and much better towing performance. Can you cite a "modern turbo large motor gas truck", by the way? I'm not aware of any with which one could make an actual comparison.

Rusty

No of course I can't. I was referring to "the future of gas motors". There are many turbos coming standard now on cars so maybe the future will have them on trucks like the Ford Ecoboost. Sure, if you're making money with a diesel and need to haul heavy all the time, a diesel is the standard as in commercial big rigs, I used to drive them daily. Maybe new turbo technology will include an electric or belt driven "turbo". You never know what the next new thing is..

[RustyJC]

Time, the marketplace and the government regulations will ultimately tell, I suppose.

Rusty

[mhs4771]

This is a debate that will go on forever. Each has their place in the world and we have the choice of which we prefer. We pull fairly heavy and a lot of miles, so for us Diesel is the only way to go.
Just an example: in 2005 I bought a Chevy 3500 dually with the Duramax, a close friend bought almost the same truck, but with the Big Block gas motor. Towing close to equal weights mileage were close, approx 10 mpg for each. Running empty was another story, the big gas stayed pretty close to the 10 (he even joked towing or empty mileage stayed the same) while the Duramax was close to 20.

[caissiel]

Originally Posted by rlwithrow

I'd like to see a cost per mile overall comparison between a modern turbo large motor gas truck and a comparable diesel. Say the new Dodge with the 6.4 with a turbo and their own diesel over a 100,000 mile duration pulling a 10,000 pound trailer. This would include the purchase price, all maintenance and repair and fuel costs. I'm going to guess they wouldn't be that far apart. That said, if I'm getting 8 mpg and my friend with a similar sized 5th wheel is getting 11 with his diesel,, what really is the point or the difference in cost to own besides trade in value in the end.

A diesel is hardly broken in at that mileage.
A gas truck doing the same work will need rebuild at 70k. Like i always did before my diesels at 200k.
Brakes and tires not included.

[jamesrxx951]

Originally Posted by caissiel

A diesel is hardly broken in at that mileage.
A gas truck doing the same work will need rebuild at 70k. Like i always did before my diesels at 200k.
Brakes and tires not included.

That maybe true of older gas engines but not so much of the newer ones. When I worked at a dealer we seen many fleet trucks with GVW's in the 15K and up range with countless engine hours and well over 100k and even 200K with original gas engines. Gas engines with larger crack rods with bigger bearings are very durable when compared to much older gassers.

[terry735001]

Originally Posted by rlwithrow

Don't get me wrong because I have driven diesel dump trucks for 8 years and there is nothing like the power of a diesel. There are many of us that don't want to live in a 5th wheel and travel the country after retirement. Many of us just want to hit the weekends with a nice camper or maybe a few weeks out of the year on a longer trip and don't want to spend $120,000.00 on a dually and a Montana. I could easily see about a $12,000.00 difference between a diesel and a new big gasser,, being the nudge towards buying a new truck to do double duty for camping and short trips to work. GM, Ford and Dodge have gassers now in the 6.2 to 6.4 range but the horsepower and torque are still well above the range of highway speeds. I'd like to see a 7+ liter motor with 500 ft. lbs of torque at 2200 rpm maybe with a turbo or super.. Is that too much to ask?

??? aa if you get the right VER of the 8.1l you can see 560 ft at 2200 rpm
add a turbo and get up over 600 and this is a gaser that is setup like a diesel

[Cumminsfan]

Originally Posted by caissiel

A diesel is hardly broken in at that mileage.
A gas truck doing the same work will need rebuild at 70k. Like i always did before my diesels at 200k.
Brakes and tires not included.

That's interesting. My 12 Ram CTD manual says the 6.7 CTD requires no break in. Only thing to do is not tow for 500 miles for the drive train to break in.