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Old 04-15-2013, 10:40 AM   #15
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Towing with a diesel

I used to tow with an 04 Dodge Ram 1500 with the 5.7l. I had no problems towing my tt but the gas mileage was the part that hurt. I used to get 8-9 mpg towing. Now i have an 05 Dodge Ram 2500 heavy duty with with the 5.9l turbo diesel. The diesel has no problem towing the tt and my average mpg is now 17. I wish I had gotten the diesel earlier.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:10 PM   #16
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I think diesel sounds like the only way to go now to find a late model used one.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Reedman View Post
I think diesel sounds like the only way to go now to find a late model used one.
Here is a free PDF booklet called "Turbo Diesel Buyers Guide" from Turbo Diesel Register. Com.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/magazines/buyersguide.phtml

This booklet is gear towards the Ram truck but should tell you what to look for in any used diesel truck when buying a diesel truck for the first time.

The booklet also lists the differences between the different model years of the Ram trucks. In my humble opinion, I would tend to buy a 07.5 or later truck with the 6.7L engine, 68RFE auto and the exhaust brake which is standard on them.

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Old 04-17-2013, 10:49 AM   #18
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Thanks for that great info.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:10 PM   #19
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I like my diesel..BUT fuel mileage will not pay for the extra up front cost (although you do recoup most of it at resale) extra maintance, ect. I purchased F350 to replace an ordered new 2008 F150 CC Lariat as we find we are camping more. Towing mileage hasn't been much more than 1-2 miles better than my gasser, but I've got all the truck I could ever need with heavier brakes suspension ect. We could pull at 70+ all day long if we wanted to. With the F150 I was lucky to maintain 60. I see no problem with a gasser though either, they last 150k+ with proper maintance and how many people keep a truck that long anyways. I personally do not want a diesel for a daily driver. In town mileage isn't really any better than my gasser F150. Fuel is more expensive, and I don't have to worry about a gasser gelling in the winter. The '09 F350 diesel has around 49,xxx on it and my "beater" daily driver which is a cherry '95 Ford F150 4x4 FlareSide has 117,xxx....I'd drive either anywhere and not be worried. We enjoy the power of our diesel, but again it's not a daily driver, it was bought to do a job and it does it well. If you're looking for a newer Ford, and have the cash, I'd look at the new 6.7 in the 2011+ Super Duty's. The folks ordered one new and unloaded average around 17-17.5 empty and 10 loaded. My 2009 6.4 is about 2 mpg less in both instances. The trucks are stock with all the emssions equipment intact. I think you'd be pleased with either option, (gas or diesel) which truck is right for you is a matter of personal choice.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:52 PM   #20
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What I find strange is that when comparing the 2013 F250 and F350 both SRW, 355 rear end, they have the same CGVW of 23500 and 5er tow rating of 15900.
They don't, however, have the same GVWR, right? That directly impacts how much pin weight the truck can handle. Typically, a SRW truck will reach its GVWR before it ever reaches its GCWR or trailer tow rating; therefore, the GVWR becomes the limiting factor.

Because of that, the F350 SRW can handle a heavier 5th wheel than a F250 SRW without exceeding the truck's GVWR rating.

Insofar as the gas versus diesel question, I've towed with both. Hands down, if you're towing anything of substantial weight over challenging terrain, the diesel is the winner as far as I'm concerned. I've spent too much time in a gasser on a 6% grade in 2nd gear at 55 MPH and 3500 RPM watching the gas gauge drop like a rock (6.5 MPG) when my 2002 diesel pulled the same 5th wheel up the same grade at 65 MPH in 6th gear (manual transmission) and got 11 MPG for the same trip.

The earlier comment regarding Dodge transmissions comes from the 47RE automatic that was last used in the 2002 model year. The 2003-early 2007 trucks used the 48RE 4-speed automatic which was better, but the January 1, 2007 and up (those with the 6.7L versus the 5.9L Cummins) trucks use the 6-speed 68RFE automatic which has been just about bulletproof. An excellent towing transmission.

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Old 04-17-2013, 01:16 PM   #21
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I am waiting to see the new 2014 beefed up heavy duty Rams with a better high strength frame. I want to see how the 3500 SRW will be rated as far as cargo weight.
Guess you missed all the press announcements. The 2013 1-ton has the new beefier frame. Ram 3/4 ton has the old frame which is odd. With GM when they introduced the fully boxed frame in 2011 it was used with both 3/4 and 1-ton trucks.

Diesel is great but the fuel is priced at that of premium gas and sometimes higher and 80% of the gas stations do not have diesel. We have to do a lot more planning to be sure we get to a station that does carry diesel. With all the new trucks there is also the need to refill the DEF tank and only the truck stops have it at the pumps and even then not all truck stops.

Diesel can add $10,000 to the purchase price of a pickup with the upcharge for the engine, transmission, and exhaust brake which is sometimes priced separately though included with the GM Duramax. The diesel option will also decrease the payload by 800 lbs. as well for a truck.

I have a diesel powered truck and it is great but it is also a luxury item. I wanted the much better acceleration and the engine braking but had no illusions about saving money on fuel. I actually have found that the 36 gallon fuel capacity is not enough with having to find stations that carry diesel along our travel routes and dislike having to stay on interstates to be able to buy diesel easily.

For a trailer weighing less than 10,000 lbs. fully loaded I would buy a gas powered truck with 4.10 gears and put the $10,000 saved into the trailer or a boat or whatever.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:45 PM   #22
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I agree with the above posters....for most of us a diesel truck is a luxury item. Would I want to give it up...not really, but I could pull with gas. When I was a young kid in the late 80's early 90's everyone pulled with 460's and 454's w 4:10's and accepted 6-7mpg. Hardly anyone run diesels and diesel was cheaper than gas. Now we all "need" one. I've included myself too. The new diesels are quiet, smooth and make nice tow rigs. If you're not biased, look at all three. I prefer Ford because I have a good dealer, and for the most part I prefer their trucks features and design over everyonelse. I personally find it hard to support Chrysler or GM as they took "bail out" money from you and me already. It seems like the only folks claiming great fuel mileage are with the Cummins. I don't think my parents new 6.7 Ford is unacceptable, but I wish my 6.4 was alitle better. I do like the look of the new Dodge and GM as well. I still "look" at what's out there, but plan on keeping the '09 F350 for awhile as it will handle our current and future needs. In KS the property tax on new vehicles will about kill you, and this one is finally getting easier to swallow. Best of luck in your search, Pick what your comfortable with and enjoy it.

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Old 04-18-2013, 08:00 AM   #23
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Rusty,
Go look at the Ford towing guide. The F250 and F350 both diesel with 355 axle ratio, srw, 10000gvw have the exact same CGVW of 23500 and 5er tow rating 15900. Changing the GVW to any of the options from 10000 to 11500 the towing numbers don't change, only the payload.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:11 AM   #24
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Looking at Ford's 2013 towing guide and picking 2 otherwise identical SRW configurations, a 4x2 crew cab long bed F250 has a 10,000 lb GVWR while a 4x2 crew cab long bed F350 has a GVWR of 11,500 lbs.

With reference to my prior statement regarding the importance of GVWR when towing a 5th wheel, back on the trailer tow rating page, Ford makes the following statement:

Quote:
Addition of trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo must not cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Label.
On a SRW truck, you will most likely reach the truck's GVWR long before the GCWR, GAWR or trailer tow rating. In that case, the GVWR becomes the limiting factor in the weight of the 5th wheel that the truck can tow, and a higher GVWR will permit towing a heavier 5th wheel.



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Old 04-19-2013, 08:49 AM   #25
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True on the 11500. But there are several options starting at 10000 . Just depends on which one you. Order. The cgvw and 5er tow ratings stay the same only the payload changes.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:56 AM   #26
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That may be so, but you have to look not only at what the truck can PULL, but also what it can CARRY when you're dealing with the pin weight of a 5th wheel. That's where the GVWR comes into consideration. As Ford states, you need to stay within ALL the truck's ratings when selecting a tow vehicle.

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Old 04-19-2013, 06:21 PM   #27
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What I find strange is that when comparing the 2013 F250 and F350 both SRW, 355 rear end, they have the same CGVW of 23500 and 5er tow rating of 15900.
One more example that tow ratings are designed for braggin' rights, not to be used to match tow vehicle to trailer - especially SUVs and pickups with single rear wheels (SRW).

Numbers:

2013 F-250 CrewCab 4x4 diesel with 8' bed
GVWR = 10,000 pounds
GCWR = 23,500
Tow rating = 16,700
Typical wet and loaded truck weight = 8,600 pounds
Typical available payload for hitch weight 1,400 pounds

2013 F-350 SRW CrewCab 4x4 diesel 8' bed
GVWR = 11,500 pounds
GCWR = 23,500
Tow rating = 16,700
Typical wet and loaded truck weight = 8,600 pounds
Typical available payload for hitch weight 2,900 pounds

Assuming no options other than diesel engine and nothing in the truck but a skinny driver, either the F-250 or the F-350 SRW CrewCab 4x4 with 8' bed could tow a 16,700 pound loaded wagon-style cotton trailer out of a west Texas cotton patch and tow it to the gin without being overloaded. Or either one could tow a loaded 16,700 pound loaded wagon-style corn trailer out of an Iowa corn field and tow it to the elevator without being overloaded. Those trailers have very little hitch weight - maybe 100 pounds. So only pulling capacity is a factor, and hauling capacity is not a factor.

So Ford didn't lie, they just didn't explain the whole truth. The tow rating is the GCWR minus the weight of the tow vehicle. 23,500 GCWR minus 16,700 tow rating shows Ford assumes a wet and loaded tow vehicle weight of only 6,800 pounds. But a 2013 SuperDuty CrewCab 4x4 diesel with 8' bed, single rear wheels, and full of fuel is going to weigh a lot more than 6,800 pounds. And that difference in weight between the shipping weight Ford uses, and the real-world weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle, is what causes so much misunderstanding by novice RV buyers.

Fifth wheel trailers have hitch weight we call pin weight - the weight on the kingpin. Most RV 5ers have 17 to 20 percent pin weight, but some have as much as 24%.

That F-250 with 1,400 pounds payload available for hitch weight is limited to a 5er with 18% pin weight of not more than about 7,778 pounds gross trailer weight. (1,400 divided by 0.18 = 7,778.) That's nowhere close to the 16,700 pounds tow rating for that truck, but that's the practical limit for that F-250.

The F-350 SRW with 2,900 pounds payload available for pin weight is limited to a 5er with 18% pin weight of not more than about 16,111 pounds gross trailer weight. That's better, but still not the 16,700 pounds the Trailer Towing Guide suggests.

That's because the SRW pickups are limited by GVWR, not the GCWR on which the tow rating is based.

GCWR (and tow rating) are based on the power, torque and strength of the drivetrain. The 2013 F-250 and F-350 SRW diesels have identical power, torque and strength of drivetrain, so they have the same GCWR. And they weigh within about 10 pounds of each other, so they have the same tow ratings. But as the numbers above show, they cannot tow the same weight of 5er without being overloaded over the GVWR of the tow vehicle.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:31 PM   #28
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SmokeyWren - excellent examples and explanation.

Can you also add the towing specs of a F-350 DRW and pin weights 5er weights?
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