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Old 01-17-2008, 07:37 AM   #15
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...... we had very esteemed members towing over 1000 pounds overweight which is completely their own private matter ......
Wrenchtraveller - I pretty much agree with your message, however the quote above I don't think is "their own private matter". IMHO when someone is overloaded it potentially puts all the rest of us on the road at risk.
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Old 01-17-2008, 07:58 AM   #16
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I wonder what % of the RVers on the road actually know and understand their actual weight limits, and stay within these limits?

I'm going to guess that the % is actually pretty low -- something like 10% is my guess.

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Old 01-17-2008, 08:59 AM   #17
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I am guessing that number is probably lower than 10%. Go to the local campgrounds on the weekend and take a walk and count the number rig setups that are over weight. How many newbie families are walking into the RV showroom or rv shows driving the daily driver SUV and want to see what all the hype about RV'ing is. The salesman tells them no problem towing that 30' TT with mid size SUV. In all the excitememnt they pay the bill and off they go having no idea what a weight rating is with their brand new TT. I thnk the solution is, just my humble opinion, a special endorsment on your license for towing that would require some type of short educational class and a written exam to ensure anyone towing knows the basics of how to handle the rig and about safety such as weight ratings. Lets face it, with more and more everyday families taking to the road in RV's, the risks are multiplying.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:08 AM   #18
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If you want to get a war going, just mention a special RV endorsement on the drivers license. Immediately you get everyone screaming about big government and big brother watching.

But with the large number of RV hitting the road and the lack of knowledge of pulling any sort of trailer, I like the idea of a written test to check the minimum level of knowledge on towing ratings, safety and procedures.

But the best approach for now is to educate the new folks and hopefully they will make a better decision.

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Old 01-17-2008, 09:59 AM   #19
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Originally posted by TXiceman:
If you want to get a war going, just mention a special RV endorsement on the drivers license. Immediately you get everyone screaming about big government and big brother watching.

But with the large number of RV hitting the road and the lack of knowledge of pulling any sort of trailer, I like the idea of a written test to check the minimum level of knowledge on towing ratings, safety and procedures.

But the best approach for now is to educate the new folks and hopefully they will make a better decision.

Ken

While I don't agree that we should have a special endorsement to our licenses, I do think that some how people need to be educated or regulated as to what they can and cannot tow with any and all vehicles. Maybe before you get the tags for a RV you must show proof of what you will be towing it with, or maybe the trailers tags should be tied to the TV somehow?
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:57 AM   #20
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In British Columbia, Canada you do need an RV endorsement if your trailer is over 10000 pounds.
No RV salesman will tell you this and the Government booklet that the written part of the test is based on, really tries and explains GVWR and GCWR to help you choose a TV. I will give an example of why some people need to educate themselves on TVs. Some people still go back to the 40s when a half ton had a 1000 pound payload.
Now, they buy a 1/2 ton truck with a 2000 pound payload and in their opinion, their truck is really a 1 ton. I know a guy with a Tundra who thought that and he had 18" wheels, same as the F350 so he feels his truck is as capable as a Ford F350 and is planning on buying a Fiver.
Another misconception is that after market suspension parts can increase your GVWR.
Even the genius lawyers on Boston Legal can not change a truck's GVWR. It is a permanent part of a truck and yes the new parts can make the truck handle better, but the legal payload remains unchanged. I really did want to borrow a Ford Ranger when I took delivery of my 06 Montana because we always drove our Honda Accord while we were shopping and not once did the RV salesman ask me what my TV was.
In a perfect world, the first question an RV salesperson should ask is what kind of TV you own. They only want to sell you the RV and hope the TV you own will get the unit off the lot.
The RV makers are just as guilty of promoting overweight towing and I have seen RV brochures with the statement............designed for today's half tons. This was not a tent trailer brochure but a full size Fifth wheel brochure and IMHO was absolutely false advertising.
Sorry to ramble on but I love talking RVs.
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:58 AM   #21
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I am by no means a supporter of gov regulation, but as more and more families hit the road in overloaded and unsafe tow combinations, it puts everyone on the road in danger. I would only support license endorsments for the purpose of educating people, not regulating them. This has been done in the boating industry requiring operators to have some type of safe boating course. Why not for RVers.
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:49 AM   #22
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Safety courses may be a way to go. However most safety courses are somehow tied to insurance rate discounts. I believe some are even partially funded by the insurance industry. I dont believe the insurance industry sees the RV community as a high risk group, so they probably would not back or discount safety course participants. Some safety courses I can think of are *driver safety courses, motorcycle safety courses, ATV safety courses, hunter safety courses, safe boater courses. Only the hunter safety course is required here in Texas before one can purchase a hunting license. Most of the others have something to do with discounting insurance rates or in the case of driver safety courses they both can be tied to insurance rate discounts and ticket dismissal. Until there is either an incentive or a requirement for RV safety courses, there will be very few participants.

Something that might go far is a requirement that dealers be truthfull and not make the general statement that "Oh your vehicle can pull that trailer". They could be given the option of not commenting, or of telling the truth. But they need to be held accountable and fined for outright lies. Also mayby a dealer requirement on any unit over a given weight (say 5000 pounds), a weight ticket must be produced for that individual unit instead of the phrase "model such and such weighs such and such with standard equipement". Possibly do this also with 3/4 ton and bigger trucks.

Maybe they could use the phrase "Weight Awareness Courses" and get corporate sponsorship from WeightWatchers.
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:07 PM   #23
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No matter how much you preach, some just do not listen. We all make choices. Some believe towing an 18,500# 5th Wheel with a pickup is just fine and to be honest, it's done every day. Some have to learn the hard way when someone makes a mistake, be it you or the other guy. Being overloaded is a legal issue and can cost an individual millions of dollars in both a legal & civil actions. Insurance will only cover part, the rest is on the owner/driver. By looking at my signature, you will see I made my decision. Currently, I only tow 12K, and while the dually will tow it easily, emergency stopping is another issue althgether. We live with the results of our decisions and now the dually is no longer the toter, just a cool daily driver.

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Old 01-19-2008, 07:59 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller:
Hi Don, my intension was not to zero in on SRW pickup owners. I own a SRW pickup myself and prefer it to a duallie in looks and size so I was careful to research my Fifth wheel specs.
My 05 F350 SRW has an 11200 pound GVWR. Previous to 05 Fords, 9900 was the max GVWR on SRW.
This increase in payload keeps my 06 Montana within my specs. My model is the 2955RL which is
33 feet long and puts 2600 pounds on the pin when loaded up the way I travel. I used to own an 04 F350 with a 9900 pound GVWR and the way I load my trailer would overload that truck.
Everything you put in the cab or the box is part of your payload and so is your pin weight.
Some people may tow larger trailers than mine with a SRW and stay within their specs.I could not because my model has most of the storage up front like most fivers. My washer/dryer is over the pin so for me if I want a larger Montana, I will have to go to a duallie. On the Montana owners site, we had very esteemed members towing over 1000 pounds overweight which is completely their own private matter but they would try and convince newbies this was perfectly acceptable.
That is when it became a public matter to myself and others. On the MOC website, when you disagree with esteemed members, you are simply booted off as I was. Love and harmony is a wonderful thing but when it promotes ignorance it loses it's charm.Take care and Happy travels.
Wrenchtraveller what hardware changes did Ford make from 04 to 05 allow for the increase in the GVWR. My 2001 SRW has a GRAWR of 6850lbs which is the same as the 2008 F350 SRW GRAWR rating with 18inch tires. I will be towing close to my GVWR limit of 9900lbs. but other than a increase in weight rating for marketing reasons I have not found a difference in the trucks hardware. Now if you have the 20inch wheel package they do have a higher tire 3700lbs+ vs 3400lb+ weight rating.
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:34 PM   #25
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Well I have read the specs on the 04 and 05 Superduties and the 05's weigh about 300 pounds more than an identical model 04. I do have a 7000 pound rear axle and a 5000 pound front axle on my 05 F350 and my 18" tires are rated at 3640
The 05's have bigger brakes and that is why the 16" wheels won't fit.
The most radical thing that Ford did to GVWR in 05 is they went model and engine specific to help the extra weight of 4x4 and the PSD not effect payload as much as previous years.
For example my 4x4 CC LB V10 has an 11200 GVWR,
the same model as mine with a PSD has an 11400 GVWR. This helps offset the extra 500 pounds pounds that a PSD adds. The V10 still nets a 300 pound larger payload. How Ford did this, I really don't know and I wonder how soon before the other brands follow suit.
This might be no more than cooking the books so to speak, but it does give the 05 and newer Fords a higher legal payload than older Fords and other brands.
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Old 01-20-2008, 08:06 PM   #26
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I am often refered to as a weight policeman - and I enjoy it. I have towed combinations that are right at or slightly overweight and have not enjoyed it at all. I have run across one RV dealer who asked the question of what TV I had - then proceeded to talk me out of the TT I wanted to buy and into a smaller and lighter model - he was also an RVer and felt that he was obligated to not sell an overweight combo.

I think the real problem is that RV mfgs want to show how lightweight their units are and TV mfgs want to brag about how much they can tow/haul. I know that the SAE is finally starting to standardize how HP and Torque are measured - and are beginning to witness the testing. Perhaps there needs to be a standard towing test for Tow Vehicles - something realistic. On the other side the RV mfgs need to give a more realistic weight - I know that the mandated "weight sticker" is a start - but it really needs to have the full weight of that TT on it, plus mfgs need to be more up front with how the weights are derived, and what is and is not included - things like batteries and LPG can easily add 100lbs to the tounge and they are not included in the tounge weight on any brochure. While most TTs have water tanks in the frame - some still put them under the sofa or bed in the front of the unit - again adding to tounge wt.

For the newbies that do research, sites like this are a great way for them to get the real picture of matching RV to TV. What they do with it is another matter.

To quote a line from Forest Gump - "Stupid is as stupid does"
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:43 AM   #27
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Gentlemen and Ladies - -
The bottom line is liability - - if you overload your truck, trailer or motorhome , doesn't matter what, wether it is GVW, GVAW, carrying capicaty, or tire capicty, your sticking your neck out 100 miles. A friends wife was hit by an overloaded 1/2 ton pickup/camper combination, with boat in tow near home and he ran over to my house and asked me to take him to the scene. We arrived as the ambulance was loading his badley injured wife, so he asked me to handle the wreck and he went with his wife. First thing I did was request that the trooper impound the wreckage as it looked like a fatality might be involve (friends wife) trooper said he'd never done that before but OK, he'd aks the wrecke to secure the mess. As it turned out the camper along with the boat trailer were way over the GCW of the pickup (tire popped causing loss of control) Driver was charged in criminal court for everthing from overweight to wreckless driving and anything else the trooper could think of. A year later in civil court the pick up owner was held responsible for negelent operation of a motor vehicle, but $3.5 MM award will not do anything for my buddies wife, she was in a vegitative state 4 years ago when they finally pulled the plug, and remains there today

So you guys can argue all you want, but if you have one tire overloaded, a smart lawyer can clean your clock, and have you begging for handouts in a bread line, and you insurance company won't be of much help.

Sorry for the long post - - but I've seen first hand what happens when somebody "Just trys to get by with the truck they have"

Denny
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:49 AM   #28
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Riverdog - -
Your comments are right on the money!

Denny
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