GVWR Sticker and Alterations Debate!

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by taken

You also have to remember that weight ratings are based on 100% safety factor. That means that it's 100% that your hitch won't break at say 1250 lbs. But at 1500 lbs it's something like 98% safe.

Oh, really? You have the FEA and high cycle fatigue test results to back that up, I'm sure.

Rusty

[taken]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

Oh, really? You have the FEA and high cycle fatigue test results to back that up, I'm sure.

Rusty

(moderator edit) If it makes you feel better living that way, good on you. You keep obsessing on ratings. I'll keep enjoying life. To each their own.

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by taken

(moderator edit) If it makes you feel better living that way, good on you. You keep obsessing on ratings. I'll keep enjoying life. To each their own.

Ummm, flaming? Shame, shame.... Not allowed here.

Actually, I'm a mechanical engineer and understand how we go about rating machinery. I just don't like to see those who don't have access to the design and durability testing data spouting off stuff as fact that they can't support.

Rusty

[taken]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

Ummm, flaming? Shame, shame.... Not allowed here.

Actually, I'm a mechanical engineer and understand how we go about rating machinery. I just don't like to see those who don't have access to the design and durability testing data spouting off stuff as fact that they can't support.

Rusty

Good for you. And unless you can provide proof of the opposite of what I posted, then right back at ya. Your opinion of the example I gave is just as unsupported! So shame on you. It could be 99% for all you know and I overestimated the drop. By the way, are you the same type engineer who can't design a fuel gauge correctly on any car sold in America?

[Route 66]

Let's stop the personal comments.

[R.B. Turner]

I am sorry now that I asked the question about there being a cushion built to help protect us.

Beausdog, regarding your beliefs on the fourth and fifth amendments; I agree wholeheartedly. But what 3665RE said, was what happened to me when I fought the law and the law won. I am sure that the law was violated against me by the local government. My subsequent actions were not proper and as I said in another post it cost me $100,000.00 and 3 years probation. I could have really easily gone to the slammer for a long stay. I still think that my constitutional rights as a property owner are being violated but I would rather be free.

I would just recommend to anyone that they pick their words very carefully when responding to a law enforcement officer. He may not be right but he is friends with the prosecuting attorney and their kids all play soccer with the judge's kids or grandkids. And like has already been mentioned here; they all still get paid while you are fighting with them.

[Nitrohorse]

Originally Posted by 3665RE

Hi

The Federal regulations establish a limitation. This limitation can be used by the states if so desired.

I am not going to waist time looking up the regulation number.

You can look it up.

In Florida there are many traffic rules and laws (laws are different than traffic rules) that have reference to the certified weights posted by the manufacture that would make operating in the over weight condition an offence.

You have operating a vehicle with an improper load, operating a vehicle with unsafe equipment. Operating a dangerous tool / instrument in an unsafe mannor / condition and several more. By the way operating a dangerous tool / instrument in an unsafe manner / condition is a felony. The Florida Suprem court put motor vehecles in this category some time between WW I and WW II.


This is my opinion:

Weight your RV. If it is overweight do something about it that will stand in civil and criminal court. If it isn’t over weight keep the weight report showing all axels and vehicles within the published limits. Weigh it at least once a year or more often if you use it for extended periods of time. They gain weight when you put those small items on board that you think you need or would be handy to have.

I weight ours before every long trip where we are fully loaded (we carry heavy items on long trips that we don’t carry on local trips). It has gained weight in the three years we have been using it. The heaviest we have ever weighed was within 500 lbs of the GCW published for the towing vehicle and 1,000 lbs. below for the GWR of the trailer. We now have 38,000 miles on the trailer about 30,000 of that with the heavy load. Because of the weight we carry in the towing vehicle we can’t load the trailer to its GVW rating.

As some one else has mentioned continued practice of operating your personal use vehicle over weight will result in regulation of you favorite travel mode. The commercial trucking industry is all ready talking about the need for regulations concerning the RV’s.

3665RE

Interesting reading.

[Beausdog]

Originally Posted by R.B. Turner

Beausdog, regarding your beliefs on the fourth and fifth amendments; I agree wholeheartedly. But what 3665RE said, was what happened to me when I fought the law and the law won. I am sure that the law was violated against me by the local government. My subsequent actions were not proper and as I said in another post it cost me $100,000.00 and 3 years probation. I could have really easily gone to the slammer for a long stay. I still think that my constitutional rights as a property owner are being violated but I would rather be free.

I didn't say get in a pissing match or an argument. What i am saying is....limit your answer to their question...i.e. can i look in your vehicle? Answer for me is no. Its not argumentative bit rather a short simple answer exercising your right. If they ask me why....it's simple, i just tell them because thats my choice. End of story. If they have anything they can go another route.

[3665RE]

Originally Posted by Beausdog

3665,

Where did you learn your civil rights from? The USSR? A cop cant do anything you do not consent to or prescribed by law. If you choose to let them trample all over you thats your choice, that doesnt make it right.....oh yea and cop is getting paid to? They are liable as individuals also, not qualified immunity. Thus if they are acting within the letter of the law, they are protected but once they step outside the law they are open game, hence why most carry personal liability insurance to cover lawsuits.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I will bet you don’t even know the difference between “Common Law” ‘Administrative Law” and “Criminal Law”.

You refuse the instructions of a law enforcement officer when he has stopped you on the road you could get a night in jail and your rig towed to impound and if the officer has been properly trained you have very little or no chance of ever recovering any thing for the cost or your unconvinced.

You have no authority to argue your rights with a law enforcement office while he is performing his duties. The law that says this is titled “interference with a law enforcement office” look it up you may learn something.

3665RE

[f1100turbo]

Originally Posted by Beausdog

Ok, I hear the weight police sirens coming, but I will preface this with....it is based on statute....Ok, here it goes....

The 49 CFR 573 regulation for GVWR only applies to newly manufactured vehicles. It does not regulate vehicles already sold. However, it does allow modifiers or alterers to change the GVWR using a good faith judgement on the new GVWR based on equipment installed such as brakes, axles, tires, etc.

Again no offense meant at all but GVWR can be adjusted.

This following paragraphs are straight from the NHTSA site:

The term GVWR is defined in 49 CFR 571.3 as "the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle." The GVWR informs vehicle owners how heavily the vehicle may be safely loaded. It also affects the vehicle's loading and other test conditions for the performance tests to ascertain whether the vehicle complies with applicable safety standards.

The only express regulatory limitation on the GVWR that manufacturers may assign to their vehicles is set forth in 49 CFR 567.4(g)(3), which provides that the assigned GVWR "shall not be less than the sum of the unloaded vehicle weight, rated cargo load, and 150 pounds times the vehicle's designated seating capacity." "Unloaded vehicle weight" is defined in 49 CFR 571.3 as "the weight of a vehicle with maximum capacity of all fluids necessary for operation of the vehicle, but without cargo, occupants, or accessories that are ordinarily removed from the vehicle when they are not in use." Although the term "rated cargo load" is not defined by regulation, generally it is the GVWR of the vehicle minus the combined weight of the occupied designated seating positions (150 pounds times the total number of designated seating positions) and the unloaded vehicle weight.

Alterers must also determine whether their modifications affect the manufacturer's stated GVWR, gross axle weight rating (GAWR), and vehicle type. If such a change has been made, the alterer must specify the new GVWR, GAWR, or vehicle type in a manner consistent with the capability of the vehicle to comply with applicable standards and operate at higher weight rating and/or as a different type of vehicle. NHTSA expects both manufacturers and alterers to assign GVWR and GAWRs that reflect the manufacturer's or alterer's good-faith evaluation of how the vehicle's braking, load bearing items (including tires), suspension, steering, and drive train components will react to the vehicle's weight, size, cargo-carrying capacity and intended use.

***Now with that said, the following is also from NHTSA's General Counsel's Office and is an excerpt of a letter requesting information in regards to a suspension alteration to increase capabilities, and there is good advice to seek counsel for liability for accidents, but here is what they say....

“...The term GVWR is defined in 49 CFR Part 571.3 as ‘the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.’ the GVWR informs vehicle owners how heavily the vehicle may safely be loaded. It also affects the vehicle’s loading and other tests conditions for the performance tests to ascertain whether the vehicle complies with applicable safety standards. NHTSA expects the GVWR to reflect a manufacturer’s good-faith evaluation of the vehicle’s size, weight, load carrying capacity, and intended use.”

“NHTSA’s regulations on GVWR only addresses the GVWR of new vehicles. This is because the agency’s safety standards apply only to new motor vehicles and new motor vehicle equipment. There is a provision, §108(a)(2)(A), in the Vehicle Safety Act that prohibits manufacturers, distributors, dealers and motor vehicle repair businesses from knowingly rendering inoperative in whole or in part any device or element of design installed in accordance with a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. These parties would be subject to this provision if they were to modify your vehicle’s suspension. However, the provision does not apply to individual owners modifying their own vehicles.”

“Because we do not regulate how individuals modify their own vehicles (and thus do not prohibit you from modifying your vehicle’s suspension), we are unable to advise you about the specific modifications that must be made to a vehicle for it to safely carry an additional 1,000 pounds. Among other things, however, you should carefully evaluate whether the vehicle’s axles, brakes, tires, and frame can adequately handle the additional load. We suggest you consult with the original vehicle manufacturer about this question. You may also wish to consult a local attorney concerning possible liability in the event your vehicle is involved in an accident.”

IMHO, I believe this answers all the questions on the sticker in the door. Is it good to follow?....sure, is it Law? I believe this shows its not binding according to NHTSA. Is there civil ramifications for accidents, etc? Im sure there are, but I don't believe they ever needed a reason to sue you before anyways...I just felt the need to show that a GVWR can in fact be altered and the sticker themselves aren't necessarily binding due to modifications done to your rig. (i.e. you have 6k lbs axles listed and you have swapped to 7k lbs axles, brakes, suspension, etc. as long as you do it yourself, if a shop does it, they can put an additional sticker on there stating the new limits)

I see your beating this dog on this site to.

[Beausdog]

Originally Posted by 3665RE

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I will bet you don’t even know the difference between “Common Law” ‘Administrative Law” and “Criminal Law”.

You refuse the instructions of a law enforcement officer when he has stopped you on the road you could get a night in jail and your rig towed to impound and if the officer has been properly trained you have very little or no chance of ever recovering any thing for the cost or your unconvinced.

You have no authority to argue your rights with a law enforcement office while he is performing his duties. The law that says this is titled “interference with a law enforcement office” look it up you may learn something.

3665RE

Lol really? A question is a request! A statement is an order....two different things. May i search your car is a request.....where sir, step out of the vehicle is an order.

[Route 66]

We're getting with the police and law posts.

Let's get back to the discussion at hand.

[3665RE]

Hello RustyJC

I am not an engineer but I have in the past built the testing equipment to test structure for an Aeronautical Structures Engineer.

The test to determine a major modification to an aircraft like extending the winds 3 ft. is 150% of the design load factor without any deflection in structure that doesn’t return to with 1 % of its original shape.

We bolted the wing to the wall of a substantial building and loaded it with sand bags in the location the engineer specified. Then we made pictures of the test. The wing did flex extensively but when unloaded came back to the same shape as it was before the test.

I found this quite interesting but would never consider operating the aircraft under those loaded conditions.

3665RE

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by 3665RE

The test to determine a major modification to an aircraft like extending the winds 3 ft. is 150% of the design load factor without any deflection in structure that doesn’t return to with 1 % of its original shape.

What in the world does that have to do with trailer hitches, frame rails, etc. on an RV? I sincerely doubt that the designers consulted aircraft design criteria when establishing load limits on these RV components. Totally different mechanisms may utilize differing design criteria, safety factors, etc.

For example, 1% yield would be totally unacceptable in the engines and compressors our company manufactures, and the one-time test you describe says nothing about fatigue resistance (i.e., how many times can the component be subjected to this load without failing?). Every time our trucks and/or RVs hit a pavement expansion joint or pothole, they are subjected to momentary loads greater than the static load (tongue weight, for instance) - fatigue resistance is a measure of how many times the component can withstand these higher-than-rated loads without low or high cycle fatigue failure.

Rusty