GVWR Sticker and Alterations Debate!

[3665RE]

Originally Posted by hooverbill

That's the whole point...you'd be over weight. I suggest you read the formula for tow capacity, it's been posted twice.

Last post on this thread, I'm done here..

You are apparently having a comprehension problem.

If the CAT scale shows he isn’t over any capacity rating then he is not over weight regardless of the GWR for the trailer.

We are talking about not exceeding the weight ratings. If he doesn’t exceed the TV weight rating by loading the trailer below the trailer GWR the he is not over weight.

The CAT scale tells all.

3665RE

[3665RE]

Originally Posted by hooverbill

That's the whole point...you'd be over weight. I suggest you read the formula for tow capacity, it's been posted twice.

Last post on this thread, I'm done here..

Hi

I have been crunching some numbers.

The formula posted doesn’t apply to this question about the SRW capacity.

I have the 2009 DRW Duramax. This TV has a max towing capacity published by GM. The formula states the manufactures max-towing capacity should not be exceeded.

So here we go. When my TV was about 6 months old I damaged the front of the pickup body so bad it had to be removed to replace the front portion of the box. I am the only guy that could “wipe out” the front of the box without scratching the paint. LOL

At any rate it turns out this box weighs about 2,000 lbs. Now I carry a model steam engine in an aluminum box in front of my fifth wheel hitch, in the back seat of the truck I carry 2 plastic boxes that take up the entire back seat floor with the seats up and then stuff on top of that.

By removing the body and aluminum box, boxes in the back seat and reduce my fuel to 10 gallons I would have reduced my TV weight to some where between 4,500 and 5,000 lbs.

Now using the formula (23,500 – 5,000) I would have a towing capacity of 18,500 lbs.

So what is wrong with this formula? I see the formula gives me a towing capacity about 2,500 lbs higher than the manufacturers published limitation for the truck. As it turns out the towing capacity published for the “cab & Chassis” truck of the same description is the same weight as the truck with this heavy 8ft pickup body on it.

Well it looks like the manufacturer knows more about the TV they designed than I do would you think.

Put it on the CAT scale and adjust your weights so you are not out of compliance with the TV & Trailer manufactures weight limitations for the TV & Trailer combination.

3665RE

[JohnBoyToo]

This debate is still raging ?!?!

A formula is like the global warming postulation - it's a theoretical guess at real events...

While I too think you CAN adjust the capacity with changes,
it doesn't change the PUBLISHED wgt ratings... but at any rate...

Overweight is not a formula from published numbers, it's a measurement on calibrated scales like the cat scales...
you KNOW the STOCK gvwr, gcwr, gawr, etc for your tv and the rv...
you weigh the loaded rv and tv on a cat scale and you KNOW the front axle (FAW), rear axle (RAW), and rv axle weights(RVAW)...

you simply compare those three numbers and totals of the numbers and you KNOW if you are within spec or not...
is the FAW > the front gawr ?
is the RAW > the rear gawr ?
is the FAW + RAW > the gvwr
is the FAW + RAW + RVAW > gcwr?
is the RVAW > gvwr of RV?

if the answer to all those is no - you are fine on weights !
if only one is exceeded you are not within specs... adjust something
it shouldn't take boundary layer theorem and days of calculations to get there !

sometimes the simplest solution is the right solution !

[RustyJC]

True, but if you don't already own the truck and trailer, you can't realistically go to the scales and get actual weights of the loaded rig. In that case, you have to crank some numbers through the formulas to get some limits you can use when shopping for a truck or trailer.

Rusty

[drfife]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

True, but if you don't already own the truck and trailer, you can't realistically go to the scales and get actual weights of the loaded rig. In that case, you have to crank some numbers through the formulas to get some limits you can use when shopping for a truck or trailer.

Rusty

But Rusty, some here take the formula as gospel, even when presented with factual information.

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by drfife

But Rusty, some here take the formula as gospel, even when presented with factual information.

I guess I can't help what others do. Certified scale weights are obviously better than estimates.

Rusty

[3665RE]

Originally Posted by JohnBoyToo

This debate is still raging ?!?!

A formula is like the global warming postulation - it's a theoretical guess at real events...


if the answer to all those is no - you are fine on weights !
if only one is exceeded you are not within specs... adjust something
it shouldn't take boundary layer theorem and days of calculations to get there !

sometimes the simplest solution is the right solution !

Hi

You are correct.

The CAT scales tell all.

What I did was look at the published weights for the TV’s first.

Then picked the trailer we wanted based on it’s published GWR as well as the configuration my wife wanted.

We purchase the TV.

We new when we purchased the trailer we would not be able to load the trailer to its GWR.

Then weighed it and the TV on the CAT scales empty.

Then weighed everything and labeled it with the weight.

We used plastic cases from Wal-Mart to combine some items as a group.

We loaded everything we thought we needed in the combined unit including full fuel, full potable water, wife, dog and me and went to the scales.

Amazingly we weighed over 1,500 lbs less than we could weigh and stay within the limitations imposed by the manufacturer of the two units.

Over the next two years we gained weight. We now travel to our events weighing 23,000 lbs. still 500 under the DCWR for the TV. We are within all weight limitations published and applicable to our two units.

We weigh ever time we load for one of our trips to an event.

3665RE

[Taab]

Just came across a couple of interesting Fact Sheets from British Columbia (BC). Here are 2 excerpts and their links.

Motor Vehicle Act Regulations in British Columbia prohibit the operation of vehicles that are unsafe or improperly loaded and exceed either the Gross Axle Rating (GAWR) or the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). The Province is focusing on vehicles that are obviously overweight and pose a risk to the safety of other motorists. These regulations apply to vehicles manufactured after January 1, 2001 that have a GVWR of 5500 kg (12125.4 pounds) or less.

http://="http://cvse.ca/vehicle_insp...DF/MV3230.pdf"

Q. How does an Peace/Police Officer decide if a vehicle is unsafe?
Peace/Police Officers will use visual cues to determine if a vehicle is obviously overloaded.
These cues include vehicles:

• that look unstable when moving

• that have a front end higher than the back end (the vehicle is not level)

• with tires that appear deflated

http://cvse.ca/vehicle_inspections/PDF/MV3230.pdf

This is certainly not the last word in RV weights, especially since it applies to BC and not the US. However, I still find the information interesting and helpful. Does anyone know of anything like this for a US state?
Thanks.

[3665RE]

Originally Posted by Taab

Just came across a couple of interesting Fact Sheets from British Columbia (BC). Here are 2 excerpts and their links.

Motor Vehicle Act Regulations in British Columbia prohibit the operation of vehicles that are unsafe or improperly loaded and exceed either the Gross Axle Rating (GAWR) or the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). The Province is focusing on vehicles that are obviously overweight and pose a risk to the safety of other motorists. These regulations apply to vehicles manufactured after January 1, 2001 that have a GVWR of 5500 kg (12125.4 pounds) or less.

="http://cvse.ca/vehicle_inspections/PDF/MV3230.pdf"

Q. How does an Peace/Police Officer decide if a vehicle is unsafe?
Peace/Police Officers will use visual cues to determine if a vehicle is obviously overloaded.
These cues include vehicles:

• that look unstable when moving

• that have a front end higher than the back end (the vehicle is not level)

• with tires that appear deflated

http://cvse.ca/vehicle_inspections/PDF/MV3230.pdf

This is certainly not the last word in RV weights, especially since it applies to BC and not the US. However, I still find the information interesting and helpful. Does anyone know of anything like this for a US state?
Thanks.

Hi

Florida has three traffic rules, regulation and law that apply.

They are:

Improperly loaded vehicle

Unsafe equipment

Unsafe operation or use of a dangerous tool / instrument.

When the Michelin tire first hit the market many years a go the public had numerous problems with the police enforcing these rules, regulations and law because the soft-sided radial tire looked overloaded when it wasn’t.

The fellows that haul oranges to the juice plants in pickup trucks from ½ ton to 1 ton commonly over load them and I mean grossly overload them. These are the rules, regulations and law that address this type of over weight condition. I have seen the FHP detain them on the side of the road until they bring in an additional truck or trucks to put the load on.

My consulting business brings me in contact with the commercial trucking industry. There is a real concern with the truckers about the RV’s they see on the road that are obviously unsafe.

Just keep it up folks and you will be pulling into the weight stations for safety inspections just like the big trucks.

3665RE

[JIMNLIN]

The BC fact sheets are not regulatory in nature but a guideline or a recommendation. If you look down in the lower RH corner it says :
"Information on this fact sheet is subject to change without notice. In the event of conflict with this fact sheet and the Motor Vehicle Act & Regulations, the acts and regulations shall apply."

BC Motor Vehicle Act Regulations.

Per division 7 size and weight codes its in conflict.

Maximum gross weight for tires
7.15 A person must not, without an overload permit, drive or operate on a highway a vehicle loaded or configured so that the gross weight on a tire exceeds either
(a) the manufacturer's rated capacity for the tire, or
(b) the tire load specified for that vehicle or vehicle combination in Appendix B, C, D, E, F, G, H or I.
[en. B.C. Reg. 95/2006, s. 3.]
Maximum gross weight for axles
7.16 (1) A person must not, without an overload permit, drive or operate on a highway a vehicle loaded or configured so that
(a) the gross weight on an axle exceeds the manufacturer's rated capacity for that axle or for the brake or suspension system with which the axle is equipped, ...........////.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<
Nowhere does it mention the truck manufactures GVWR determines how much weight the truck may carry.
Remember the truck manufacture has a GVWR. In BC and maybe other provinces/states the truck may be
required to be registered at a certain GVWR/GVW/ladin or a weight number.
The truck manufacturers GVWR can be different than the truck registered GVWR. IMO this is where RV folks get confused.
I've seen three of these worksheets/factsheets from BC . They all recommend the same thing. One even says recommendation were from general motors but then all refered to the BC Motor Vehicle Act Regulations.

[Taab]

Jimnlin,

Thanks for the info.

I have a 2010 F250 diesel with a 10,000 lb GVWR, leaving about 2000 lbs for everything else including the 5th wheel hitch weight. After I bought my truck I actually found an F350 with the same axle/spring setup with an 11,400 lb GVWR. I have the tow package and the camper package. I am almost certain that my truck is exactly the same as a comparably equipped F350 (the 350 does have a slightly taller block between the axle and springs, but this is likely only to make the truck sit more level with the heavier weight. It should have almost no effect on the GVWR). It seems that Ford limits F250's to 10,000 lbs.

If anyone knows if my assumptions are correct please let me know.

Since I have not purchased a 5th wheel yet I am doing my due diligence to determine how much I can carry. I have about 3000 lbs available on the rear axle rating and I believe I could carry about 2500 pounds of hitch weight with no problem.

The question of course is -- is this legal?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[taken]

Originally Posted by Taab

Jimnlin,

Thanks for the info.

I have a 2010 F250 diesel with a 10,000 lb GVWR, leaving about 2000 lbs for everything else including the 5th wheel hitch weight. After I bought my truck I actually found an F350 with the same axle/spring setup with an 11,400 lb GVWR. I have the tow package and the camper package. I am almost certain that my truck is exactly the same as a comparably equipped F350 (the 350 does have a slightly taller block between the axle and springs, but this is likely only to make the truck sit more level with the heavier weight. It should have almost no effect on the GVWR). It seems that Ford limits F250's to 10,000 lbs.

If anyone knows if my assumptions are correct please let me know.

Since I have not purchased a 5th wheel yet I am doing my due diligence to determine how much I can carry. I have about 3000 lbs available on the rear axle rating and I believe I could carry about 2500 pounds of hitch weight with no problem.

The question of course is -- is this legal?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Your 2010 is identical to a 350 other than the 4" blocks. This was the case for a decade with Superduty trucks. (Although some 350 configurations came with overload springs, many did not.) In the 2011 redesign, they actually changed the axles between the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. They also initially upgraded to Hydroboost brakes on the 350, but now both the 250's and 350's SRW's use vacuum boost. On my 09 I swapped in the 4" blocks for about $100 to eliminate sag while towing. Ford even had a TSB about it and gave dealers part numbers to do the swap for customers who were unhappy with the 250's rear end sag. Anyways, tires, brakes, and axles are all identical in your 2010. Johnny law will only look at the tag and not be interested in this info so if your concerned with getting a ticket, stay within your 10k. If you're concerned with safety and they don't check weight where you tow, then go by the 350's numbers. They are the same truck. If you want to keep your rear end more level, swap your rear blocks to 4" ones.

[JIMNLIN]

Legal weight issues ??
..... as the BC weight codes show are the truck manufacturers axle/tire capacity rating.
Also some states/provinces may require your private use truck to have a registered GVW or GVWR. A ticket may be issued if the truck didn't have enough registered weight for the load.
Then other states, as my state, have no weight registration requirements for a private use truck. We simply carry up to the trucks axle/tire ratings on each axle system. Same for a trailer.

This email from a RV.net member who had the same question to the state of California and has been posted before. This is the responce;


"This is in response to your electronic mail dated October 14, 2009.
First, allow me to apologize for the untimely response to your e-mail.
My staff recently received your request and by the date of your e-mail,
it appears to have been lost in the system. You were requesting
information pertaining to state laws limiting the gross vehicle weight
rating (GVWR) and/or gross combined weight rating (GCWR) for fifth wheel
and recreational vehicle owners. I have answered each of your questions
in the order asked.
Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
Section 21715(b) CVC prohibits a motor vehicle under 4,000 pounds
unladen from towing any vehicle weighing 6,000 pounds or more gross
weight. This section would apply to smaller pickups and Sport Utility
Vehicles attempting to tow large trailers.
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.
Section 24002(a) CVC prohibits a vehicle or combination of vehicles
which is in an unsafe condition or which is not safely loaded and which
presents an immediate safety hazard from operating on the highway. This
section provides officers the authority to stop a vehicle or combination
of vehicles that is, in the officer’s opinion, unsafe to operate on
the highway. This section could be used to prohibit a driver from
continuing until the unsafe condition is fixed.
Q: “If they were to have an accident would they be cited?”
A: The officer investigating the collision would make the
determination whether to cite the driver based on evidence collected
during the investigation and the determination of the cause of the
collision.
Q: “Would their insurance company pay damages?”
A: Please contact your insurance company to obtain damage claim
information.
I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.

Sincerely,

S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"

[Taab]

Hey guys,

Thanks for info. We plan to travel all over the US so it may be hard to keep up with every states laws.

Many have recommended airbags. I know they don't change the weights, but are they worth doing?

I'm not sure why, but this seems a lot harder than it should be.

Thanks again for the excellent info!