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Old 09-08-2012, 10:01 AM   #113
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A LEO can't pull you over for 'looking' overloaded. He/She also can't require a non commercial vehicle go to a scale, if they tried, they'd be responsible for anything that happened along the way. The catch is that IF you are involved in an accident, THEN you can be sited for being overloaded. And of course, the insurance companies and lawyers will line up to get their pound of flesh.

It's just not worth it.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:47 PM   #114
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As a newby on this forum I am trying to get information and advice from those with more experience than myself (which means all of you).

Quote:
R.B. Turner wrote
I have been thinking about this; do the manufacturers state the GVWR but really have a little extra "cushion" built in? You know what I mean, they figure to keep us "experts" out of trouble? What do you guys think?
Randy your question highlights the opposing data we have available to us.

The link below points out that until 2013 there was no standard to compare one manufacturers towing claims to another. In other words manufacturers each had their own standards and they were not the same. So towing at the limit in one truck may have been more or less safe than towing at the limit in another manufacturers truck. Some manufacturers likely "pushed the limit" more than their competitors to try and get an edge. So maybe there wasn't as much "cushion" as we might have thought.

Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine

On the other hand, real world experience might make you feel better about that "cushion." The link below leads to a group that weighs a lot of RVs. They state:
RVSEF Weigh Data (Recreational Vehicle Safety Education Foundation)
● 56% of RV’s weighed were overweight
● 22% of rear tires were overloaded
If 56% of RVs are overweight, keep in mind that is 56% of people who wanted their RVs weighed, and there is little or no cushion in manufacturers ratings we might expect a lot more problems than we actually hear about. Everyone seems to agree that tire and axle ratings are sacrosanct yet 22% of rear tires were overloaded! I suspect there is some "unknown" cushion built in.

RV WEIGH - Mobile Weigh Station

I know this is not an apples to apples comparison. While the overweight numbers are clearly related to GVWR, the towing numbers include GVWR as one of many factors affecting the towing capacity.

Cat320 - I understand your point that the manufacturers, by law, must establish a GVWR and that the manufacturers say not to exceed this number. You may be right in believing that it is illegal to exceed the GVWR. I just haven't seen that spelled out clearly anywhere.

It seems that everywhere I look I see contradictory opinions. I would love to see something definitive.

Thanks and feel free to disagree. I am trying to learn and I still have a long way to go.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:25 AM   #115
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I see it this way....i dont advocate being overweight, in fact i think you should be responsible and weigh your rig to ensure you are safe for all, bit still have yet to see a statute that says exceeding a gvwr is illegal. But most here seem to think cops have all the rights in the world to do as they please.....if i was stopped and there was a law in effect (which i havent seen) then i as a citizen still have fourth and fifth amendment rights. By this i mean, i would not allow the police officer to look at the sticker on the door post of my truck for the gvwr, i would request they get a warrant, or obtain the information another way within their means. I would not drive on a scale thus providing incriminating evidence against myself, in other words, i would not freely consent or give them ANY evidence to use against me whether overweight or towing at dry weight. To enter your vehicle to gather information or evidence in search of an "illegal" act would be determined a search, and IMHO its not that easy to get a magistrate to sign off on a warrant for the basis to determine IF a crime had been committed but would sign off if probable cause was presented to show a crime had already been committed and what evidence is in the vehicle to which the LEO is searching. As i said, i always weigh out and know im under when travelling but still would not consent to ANYTHING other than license, registration and proof of insurance and make them work for anything else they feel the need to gain.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:53 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beausdog View Post
I as a citizen still have fourth and fifth amendment rights. By this i mean, i would not allow the police officer to look at the sticker on the door post of my truck for the gvwr, i would request they get a warrant, or obtain the information another way within their means. I would not drive on a scale thus providing incriminating evidence against myself, in other words, i would not freely consent or give them ANY evidence to use against me whether overweight or towing at dry weight. To enter your vehicle to gather information or evidence in search of an "illegal" act would be determined a search, and IMHO its not that easy to get a magistrate to sign off on a warrant.
If you were to take this attitude on the side of a highway, I imagine alarms would go off in the Officer's head. He could hold you there and bring a dog that could alert to drugs, explosives, etc. (even if false) enough to get a warrant and a search. After dismantling your RV to the frame, they could perhaps find medicine without proper prescription I.D., open container of alcohol, (wine left over from dinner) or some other infraction. There's a time for asserting rights and a time for quiet cooperation. Knowing the difficult and dangerous situations patrolmen face on every traffic stop, I try to not make sudden moves or try to bluster my way through the stop. In 46 years of driving I've been stopped a few times and find that my attitude has gotten me off with a warning more times than a ticket, even when I deserved one.

Since there is no clear laws pointing to stopping RVs for overweight condition, unless your tires are running 'flat' or a dangerous sag in the suspension, I believe you could get away with it in most cases---Until an accident. THEN the overweight condition could be used against you by the law, insurance company, or the other guy's lawyer.
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFlinn181

If you were to take this attitude on the side of a highway, I imagine alarms would go off in the Officer's head. He could hold you there and bring a dog that could alert to drugs, explosives, etc. (even if false) enough to get a warrant and a search. After dismantling your RV to the frame, they could perhaps find medicine without proper prescription I.D., open container of alcohol, (wine left over from dinner) or some other infraction. There's a time for asserting rights and a time for quiet cooperation. Knowing the difficult and dangerous situations patrolmen face on every traffic stop, I try to not make sudden moves or try to bluster my way through the stop. In 46 years of driving I've been stopped a few times and find that my attitude has gotten me off with a warning more times than a ticket, even when I deserved one.

Since there is no clear laws pointing to stopping RVs for overweight condition, unless your tires are running 'flat' or a dangerous sag in the suspension, I believe you could get away with it in most cases---Until an accident. THEN the overweight condition could be used against you by the law, insurance company, or the other guy's lawyer.
To the contrary, i would take it as it already has been set by supreme court precedent to encompass prevention of fishing expeditions by law enforcement. The problem with your statement lays with you determining when to curb your entitled rights. If you grant consent, they may find what you say they may dig up regardless....only now you have no grounds to challenge as you granted consent. Arizona v Grant greatly decreased warrantless vehicle searches just for that purpose, if you are otherwise free to go at the conclusion of a traffic stop, the officer can not further detain you for a fishing expedition. The stop must not be excessive in time/duration as would be considered unreasonable. Supreme court did not establish a specific timeline but did state in a Colorado case involving an RV with narcotics as 25-30 minute's was unreasonable as that was the time length of the traffic stop while the cop tried to stall to get more information, in turn they overturned the conviction and suppressed to warrantless search which by PC was established due to a k9. Generally cops wont tell you that you are free to leave but once a stop is completed for the original offense, they must "recontact" outside the scope of the stop and request permission. I know my rights and choose to exercise them regardless of if i did or didn't do something.
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:24 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFlinn181 View Post
A LEO can't pull you over for 'looking' overloaded. .
This surprises me. We've all seen the pickup truck loaded to the gills with the tires looking flat and headlights pointed to the sky. Are you saying LEOs have to wait for the accident to happen?

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Old 09-09-2012, 12:34 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickO

This surprises me. We've all seen the pickup truck loaded to the gills with the tires looking flat and headlights pointed to the sky. Are you saying LEOs have to wait for the accident to happen?

Rick
I dont agree per se with that statement, it would depend on the circumstances as a leo can stop if there is "reasonable suspicion" you are "unsafe" (i use that term since i haven't seen a overweight law for private vehicles as of yet) but they would have to clearly articulate why your vehicle is unsafe.....like tires flat and back sagging which causes your lights to illuminate the space station...i could buy that as reasonable suspicion...but a srw f350 with a 2" sag......i wouldnt.....just my. 02
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickO View Post
This surprises me. We've all seen the pickup truck loaded to the gills with the tires looking flat and headlights pointed to the sky. Are you saying LEOs have to wait for the accident to happen?

Rick
I was accepting Beausdog's statement that there is no clean cut laws pertaining to non commercial over weight laws. I also was paraphrasing in post #113 something I read on another forum from a retired Oregon St Trooper. He said that there is no laws he could use to site you in a highway stop and to request you follow him to a scale. That would hold his department liable if anything happened on the trip to the scales. He said they didn't feel it was worth the risk to stop an over weight RV.

I agree that in the case of the overloaded pick-up, you could probably be sited for an unsafe condition or improper load.

I in no way want to encourage self-modifying GVWR or GCVR. If your TV isn't big enough to handle the load, buy a bigger TV and or cut down on what you pack. Among our precious rights is the right to be stupid, until it infringes on other's right to safety.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:04 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beausdog View Post
I dont agree per se with that statement, it would depend on the circumstances as a leo can stop if there is "reasonable suspicion" you are "unsafe" (i use that term since i haven't seen a overweight law for private vehicles as of yet) but they would have to clearly articulate why your vehicle is unsafe.....like tires flat and back sagging which causes your lights to illuminate the space station...i could buy that as reasonable suspicion...but a srw f350 with a 2" sag......i wouldnt.....just my. 02
Quote:
Originally Posted by BFlinn181 View Post
I was accepting Beausdog's statement that there is no clean cut laws pertaining to non commercial over weight laws. I also was paraphrasing in post #113 something I read on another forum from a retired Oregon St Trooper. He said that there is no laws he could use to site you in a highway stop and to request you follow him to a scale. That would hold his department liable if anything happened on the trip to the scales. He said they didn't feel it was worth the risk to stop an over weight RV.

I agree that in the case of the overloaded pick-up, you could probably be sited for an unsafe condition or improper load.

I in no way want to encourage self-modifying GVWR or GCVR. If your TV isn't big enough to handle the load, buy a bigger TV and or cut down on what you pack. Among our precious rights is the right to be stupid, until it infringes on other's right to safety.
Thanks guys. I understand where you're coming from now.

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Old 09-09-2012, 10:48 PM   #122
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When exceeding published limits on mechanical devices you will sooner or later find out what the tensile strength is. It’s not always what you’re looking for.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:49 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beausdog View Post
I see it this way....i dont advocate being overweight, in fact i think you should be responsible and weigh your rig to ensure you are safe for all, bit still have yet to see a statute that says exceeding a gvwr is illegal. But most here seem to think cops have all the rights in the world to do as they please.....if i was stopped and there was a law in effect (which i havent seen) then i as a citizen still have fourth and fifth amendment rights. By this i mean, i would not allow the police officer to look at the sticker on the door post of my truck for the gvwr, i would request they get a warrant, or obtain the information another way within their means. I would not drive on a scale thus providing incriminating evidence against myself, in other words, i would not freely consent or give them ANY evidence to use against me whether overweight or towing at dry weight. To enter your vehicle to gather information or evidence in search of an "illegal" act would be determined a search, and IMHO its not that easy to get a magistrate to sign off on a warrant for the basis to determine IF a crime had been committed but would sign off if probable cause was presented to show a crime had already been committed and what evidence is in the vehicle to which the LEO is searching. As i said, i always weigh out and know im under when travelling but still would not consent to ANYTHING other than license, registration and proof of insurance and make them work for anything else they feel the need to gain.


I hope no one is listening to this guy.

This is a quick way to windup with a night in jail and your rig towed to impound.

Remember the only person who has any authority when you are on the side of the road with a Police Officer is the Officer.

Then when you have created a confrontational situation the next person that has all of the authority is the Judge.

Then when you finally get to the end of all of the people who have all of the authority and you have none and get a decision in your favor the Officer still wins because he has no liability.

You may win money in court because you have convinced a jury you were mistreated but the Officer is not penalized. The officer even gets paid during the time he is in court regarding the case and the Officer pays none of any monetary penalty.

Remember the Officer is only doing his job.

This is kind of like stepping out in front of a vehicle because “Pedestrians have the Right of Way”.


You still get just as dead.

3665RE
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:53 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastEagle
When exceeding published limits on mechanical devices you will sooner or later find out what the tensile strength is. It’s not always what you’re looking for.

FastEagle
Fasteagle,

I understand this and that is not what the post is about, all i am saying is gvwr is not law and gvwr can be increased in a prescribed manner contrary to what some may say. But here is some food for your thoughts, if you follow the PROPER way to increase your GVWR through modifications, are you still "pushing" the mechanical capabilities of the vehicle or are you well within the "new" capabilities? I will go with the later.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:59 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3665RE

I hope no one is listening to this guy.

This is a quick way to windup with a night in jail and your rig towed to impound.

Remember the only person who has any authority when you are on the side of the road with a Police Officer is the Officer.

Then when you have created a confrontational situation the next person that has all of the authority is the Judge.

Then when you finally get to the end of all of the people who have all of the authority and you have none and get a decision in your favor the Officer still wins because he has no liability.

You may win money in court because you have convinced a jury you were mistreated but the Officer is not penalized. The officer even gets paid during the time he is in court regarding the case and the Officer pays none of any monetary penalty.

Remember the Officer is only doing his job.

This is kind of like stepping out in front of a vehicle because “Pedestrians have the Right of Way”.

You still get just as dead.

3665RE
3665,

Where did you learn your civil rights from? The USSR? A cop cant do anything you do not consent to or prescribed by law. If you choose to let them trample all over you thats your choice, that doesnt make it right.....oh yea and cop is getting paid to? They are liable as individuals also, not qualified immunity. Thus if they are acting within the letter of the law, they are protected but once they step outside the law they are open game, hence why most carry personal liability insurance to cover lawsuits.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:53 AM   #126
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Quote:
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I have been thinking about this; do the manufacturers state the GVWR but really have a little extra "cushion" built in? You know what I mean, they figure to keep us "experts" out of trouble? What do you guys think?

You bet. Just like our gas guages say empty and computers say 0 miles to empty with 5 gallons left in the tank. It's to protect us dumb lawsuit happy Americans. You also have to remember that weight ratings are based on 100% safety factor. That means that it's 100% that your hitch won't break at say 1250 lbs. But at 1500 lbs it's something like 98% safe. You have to think of it relative to life. If you never leave the house your a lot safer than if you go rving in the first place. For me, I also go boating, ride a Harley, ride ATV's, and ride snowmobiles. All of which drop the percentage on my safety factor. So think about how you live and all the things you do that you would be safer doing without. I'm not advocating being a fool, but there certainly a lot more ways (and more likely ways) for me to get in trouble than towing a few hundred lbs over any particular rating.
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