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Old 09-24-2016, 11:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by user293 View Post
I was once was staying in an RV park, where there was a 4x4 convention. A person pulled his diesel pusher into the space next to mine. He was trailering a dieseled Jeep CJ with Dana 80's and 40+ inch tires. This person must have been a mechanic, the body and frame was completely rebuilt. I'd say it could have been easily rated as 1.5 ton or higher.
You might be incorrectly applying an idea like strength to another idea like cargo capacity. I wouldn't. There are different kinds of strength, for different purposes.

I wouldn't take a vehicle like a Jeep of any kind that I've seen, jack it up for wheel clearance, make the frame very flexible for managing very rough and difficult terrain, and put very large wheels and tires with tall sidewalls on it, then toss a ton or more in the back of it. Nope, that thing might lay over on it's side so you could scratch its belly the first turn you made at almost any speed faster than walking.

Different tools for different jobs.
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Old 09-24-2016, 12:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by 1bigmess View Post
You might be incorrectly applying an idea like strength to another idea like cargo capacity. I wouldn't. There are different kinds of strength, for different purposes.

I wouldn't take a vehicle like a Jeep of any kind that I've seen, jack it up for wheel clearance, make the frame very flexible for managing very rough and difficult terrain, and put very large wheels and tires with tall sidewalls on it, then toss a ton or more in the back of it. Nope, that thing might lay over on it's side so you could scratch its belly the first turn you made at almost any speed faster than walking.

Different tools for different jobs.
Yes I prefer a lower center of gravity. My OME medium lift kit is around 1.5 to 2.5 inch depending on the payload. Included heavier duty springs and some nice shocks. One Reason I added the suspension kit was my old suspension was wearing out and the lift allowed to save my exhaust from being damaged while off-road. With the OEM springs I was continually tearing and replacing my muffler. The lift is enough to get over those obstacles the OEM suspension can't.

OME designs suspension kits for all sorts of applications, sell to people who work in the forests, workers that need to carry additional tools and equipment, construction outfits, farms, etc. Their philosophy isn't really concerned about lifting a vehicle or how high, it's mainly how well their suspension works with a particular vehicle. All their suspension kits are field tested and engineered for individual lines of vehicles.

Yes, it can become difficult and expensive to properly lift a Jeep. Typical good high lift kits for a Jeep range from around ~$2000.00 to over ~$4000.00. (lower height and lesser quality lift kits are normally less) There is a bunch of technical details that must be addressed to properly lift a Jeep. One problem is the Jeep is a short wheel base vehicle, when lifted binds the driveline which effects the TC and differential. SYE's with a double cardan CV type drive shaft are normally used to alleviate poor driveshaft angles. Which also may be a solution to vibration or death wobble which some lifts not properly install experience. Your drive shaft needs to be within a certain degree from the TC and rear diff when performing a lift.

There are SUV's like mine, that are not heavily modified, typical investment is around ~20,000+ dollars. Some spend more while others on a budget usually spend less, possibly around ~$10,000 or less. There's alot of other equipment and modifications such as roof racks, tire carriers, modded front and rear bumpers, body armer, air compressor, storage space, intake and exhaust, engine upgrades, brake upgrades, steering upgrades, etc. a very long list of add-ons for off-road vehicles.

I don't really get into add-ons and prefer to keep my Jeep mostly stock. My stock tires are suppose to be 215's and I upgraded to 235's. My Jeep you can't really install larger tires unless you have a higher lift or cut the fender wells as larger tires will rub. Larger tires normally require different wheels with different wheel offsets.

There's a whole lot of problems you can run into when lifting a Jeep. Lifts aren't really designed and installed for higher payloads and GVWR.

Typically 4x4's such as the Jeep use frame stiffeners for more extreme off-road. They beef up the underbelly, frame, some add an external frame over the body. Some completely redesign how the suspension connects to the frame and most install skid plates and some go with larger axles.

There's a whole lot to learn if you haven't lifted a Jeep as your changing the geometry of the steering and suspension. Typical problems are with axle wrap, wear and tear, effects on cooling and transmission, use of larger tires, airflow, etc. Very long list of problems that need to be addressed when lifting a Jeep.

Some people I know who rock crawl also go into muddy and swap areas where the Jeep may end up underwater. So they add a snorkel, which helps some to get through water, but doesn't help with traction.

The Russians have a few street legal off-road vehicles that are actually able to go in and on top of water. One such vehicle is the Aton, also the Sherp, plus several others. Mainly use large air adjustable tires that allow the car to go on top of water.

For consumer type off-road 4x4 one of the main enemies is mud. Most 4x4's, even those with all many modifications, just don't have the traction for heavy mud and often get stuck.

This has been a problem since the first Jeep which was originally designed by Bantam where the design was taken over by Willys when Bantam couldn't produce enough in time. The Military owned the original Jeep design and could give it to whoever won the contract.

You need to remember many of these people modding Jeeps and other 4x4 vehicles are doing it because they enjoy doing it. It's become a pastime for many. Others may just want to get off-road into the wilderness or just to see what a vehicle can do when under more extreme conditions.

Some just beat the holy hell out of a Jeep, let it tumble down hills, etc. Then get another one and fix it up.

My favorite Jeep at one time was a 49 Willys Wagon from many years ago. No power brakes, steering, came with a bench seat. I remember it well as I could actually feel the road. Modern vehicles you can loose touch with the terrain as their designed for comfort.
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Old 09-26-2016, 11:05 PM   #31
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The weight of your 2wd Avy sounds high unless it has the 6.0 which is a nice engine for towing. My 2007 4wd LTZ with all the options weighs in at 6100 lbs.(5.3 motor)
I'm towing a 5200# UVW Outdoors RV Creekside which tend to be heavy for the size.
I weighed the TV & TT at a CAT scale. Total weight for both came in at 12,300lbs. The max combined weight according to the manual is 13,000.
I'm tight but still under by 700lbs.
I would not want to be any heavier that that with a Chevy Avalanche as my tow vehicle.
I love the Avalanche but plan to get a newer Silverado or F-150 when she wears out.
I think your Avy would tow the Apex Ultralight just fine as long as you have the tow package and watch your speed, tire pressures, etc.
Good luck and Happy travels.
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Old 09-27-2016, 08:19 AM   #32
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Police may or may not want to pursue an additional charge of operating an vehicle in an unsafe manner or whatever the charge would be but they may be trying to charge a person who perished in the accident. They may prefer to leave it to the. . . . . .

Civil Lawsuit. I suspect that as a victim of an incident with an overloaded vehicle I can easily find a lawyer who will pursue the owner of said overloaded vehicle to the ends of the earth at no cost to myself.
When people towing a camper run into another vehicle, (fail to stop and hit someone from behind) the possible overloaded scenario is usually a moot issue. Its simply the drivers fault and the driver is liable whether overloaded, underloaded, or not loaded. By the same token, if someone runs a stop sign and hits a vehicle exceeding weight limits, the person running the light is at fault. If one wishes to argue that the overload cause the rear end collision, it really has nothing to do with the liability. To increase punitive damages, the plaintiff would have to show the overload directly exacerbated the damages and the person knowingly knew the danger and willfully ignored the danger.
It the advertised pin weight by the manufacture was 1900 lbs and I loaded 1000 lbs to the trailer, 25% would go to the pin if evenly distributed. Accordingly, my pin is now 2150. If the specs on my truck sez I can handle 2200 in cargo, I'm technical in my limit. (assuming I'm under GCWR)
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:14 AM   #33
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I wanted to add about GVWR ratings set by auto and trailer manufactures.

Is the GVWR ratings can be re-interpreted and even ignored by state and local jurisdictions.

Some state and local jurisdictions may not acknowledge a vehicles GVWR and base their DOT laws on their own towing requirements such as tire rating, accessories, towing add-ons, etc.

Federal DOT laws mainly govern and impose laws, rules and regulations on the manufactures and importers (which they can fine and/or shut down) and not the drivers and vehicle owners when towing. it's left up to the state and local jurisdictions to decide and how to interpret and enforce their own DOT laws.

The best thing to do is check your state’s D.O.T. laws to determine how they interpret GVWR and capacity ratings.
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:17 AM   #34
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I wanted to add about GVWR ratings set by auto and trailer manufactures.

Is the GVWR ratings can be re-interpreted and even ignored by state and local jurisdictions.

Some state and local jurisdictions may not acknowledge a vehicles GVWR and base their DOT laws on their own towing requirements such as tire rating, accessories, towing add-ons, etc.

Federal DOT laws mainly govern and impose laws, rules and regulations on the manufactures and importers (which they can fine and/or shut down) and not the drivers and vehicle owners when towing. it's left up to the state and local jurisdictions to decide and how to interpret and enforce their own DOT laws.

The best thing to do is check your state’s D.O.T. laws to determine how they interpret GVWR and capacity ratings.
I worked for our DOT managing road construction projects. At that time the license bureau issued licensed capacities based on the tire size. The owner had to prove the vehicle they were licensing met or exceeded the GVWR. If not the max license weight was the GVWR.

At the same time insurance and compensation were checked for validity.

The owners could alter, rebuild, accessorize to their hearts content but the manufacturers sticker on the door post was unchanged. Several owners removed the sticker hoping to beat the system. Then a simple check of the truck manufacturers data would determine the capacities. It was an inconvenience for the trucker as they were not allowed to haul until the check was completed.

When hiring a truck we would look at the licensed weight and ensure the tires on the truck were the size listed on the sticker or better.
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Old 09-28-2016, 05:02 PM   #35
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I worked for our DOT managing road construction projects. At that time the license bureau issued licensed capacities based on the tire size. The owner had to prove the vehicle they were licensing met or exceeded the GVWR. If not the max license weight was the GVWR.

At the same time insurance and compensation were checked for validity.

The owners could alter, rebuild, accessorize to their hearts content but the manufacturers sticker on the door post was unchanged. Several owners removed the sticker hoping to beat the system. Then a simple check of the truck manufacturers data would determine the capacities. It was an inconvenience for the trucker as they were not allowed to haul until the check was completed.

When hiring a truck we would look at the licensed weight and ensure the tires on the truck were the size listed on the sticker or better.
DOT managed road construction projects I don't think is quite the same as DOT regulation of private citizens with state issued private drivers and vehiicle licenses.

Was this project managed by State or Federal DOT? There are DOT Federal and state & local projects. Possibly projects managed by both Federal and local government authorities.

These were privately licensed or commercially licensed vehicles? Were the drivers privately or commercially licensed? (I use to have a CDL license and drove dual semis across county, any violations while driving commercially were put onto my commercial license. Any violations while driving privately were put onto my private license. This is also true for most all professional drivers such for delivery drivers, taxi-cab, etc. that don't require a CDL.

State and local jurisdictions for the most part can interpret Federal DOT laws however they deem necessary for their local. Some directly adopt Federal DOT laws as their own, while others using federal guidelines write their own DOT laws and create methods of enforcement.

Some local jurisdictions, some of the DOT laws are enforced at the discretion of the police officer. If the officer decides your in violation of their own DOT laws, he or she can let you go with a warning or write you a ticket.

The mere act of a Government agency hiring you to do some potentially could change your driving privileges, vehicle equipment and operations. Thus your private vehicle and driver license DOT laws potentially are change, modified and re-interpreted.

Federal DOT mostly governs businesses and importers that manufacture and/or sell DOT approved equipment. Have the authority to fine and/or put business out of business.

Unless it's a Federal project where the Feds need to hire local contractors, etc. Private vehicles and licenses are not actually under the Feds jurisdiction unless they are contracted. These private business contractors usually then must follow Federal, state and local laws. In some cases they also need to follow laws written by native Americans, when there project exists on Native American land and/or a bodies of water(s) such as rivers, lakes, streams, etc. under the jurisdiction of Native Americans.

I believe this is also true of state and local DOT projects.

Some states a private drivers license is still considered to be a privilege and not a right.

Federally the US Supreme Courts interpretation of driving:

U.S. SUPREME COURT AND OTHER HIGH COURT CITATIONS PROVING THAT NO LICENSE IS NECESSARY FOR NORMAL USE OF AN AUTOMOBILE ON COMMON WAYS

"The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guaranty one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another's rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct."

State and local governments for the most part write and enforce their own laws unless the activity is under the authority of the Federal government.

State Government Under the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, all powers not granted to the federal government are reserved for the states and the people. All state governments are modelled after the federal government and consist of three branches: executive, legislative, and judicial. The U.S. Constitution mandates that all states uphold a "republican form" of government, although the three-branch structure is not required
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Old 09-28-2016, 06:17 PM   #36
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Federal DOT laws and authorities for the most part regulate the manufacturing and selling of vehicles and other Federally regulated DOT products, don't normally, (unless contracting) enforce or regulate privately owned and licensed vehicles.
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:13 PM   #37
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We've gotten WAY off topic here folks. This thread has run its course & besides the OP stated he answered his own question back on post #6. Thanks for contributing.

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