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Old 10-15-2014, 01:31 PM   #1
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Question Looking at Toy Hauler 5th wheel, need truck advice

We are looking @ TH 5th wheels options with an 11'-12' garage/3 slides.
The TH's we have looked @ have multiple weights & my small brain is thoroughly scrambled. What kind of truck do we need to tow a 20,000# 5th wheel (voltage 3970: 15,920 dry, 3,476 hitch, 4,080 cargo)?

Do I need a DRW?
Can I get a F250 Diesel or F350?

I have looked @ fords site & It looks like I need a F450 DRW (way more truck than I want) but is that true?
I prefer used since it does not need to be a daily driver, I have just heard so many issues with the older 6.0 Diesels. Maybe stay with 2011 or newer?

I drive a 2011/12 Chevy 2500 gas for work & it is a piece of crap.

I like the Fords not against Dodge & love my Avalanche(not for towing) but I am so confused by the "tow ratings".

I have been told about the GRVW but they are far lower than the truck/trailer combo weight.

Can you assist me?
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:03 PM   #2
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If you know the weight of the trailer then read the truck towing specs published by the truck manufacturer. You are legally responsible for having an adequate tow vehicle. Don't rely on personal opinions, get the facts.
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatboyM View Post
What kind of truck do we need to tow a 20,000# 5th wheel (voltage 3970: 15,920 dry, 3,476 hitch, 4,080 cargo)?

Do I need a DRW?
Assuming your definition of "Tow" means without exceeding any of the truck manufacturers' weight limits, then:

Definitely.

Quote:
Can I get a F250 Diesel or F350?
Not an F-250, and not an F-350 SRW. Must be a 2011-up F-350 DRW or F-450 pickup.

Quote:
I have looked @ fords site & It looks like I need a F450 DRW (way more truck than I want) but is that true?
Numbers for 2012 F-350 DRW:

GVWR = 13,300
GCWR = 30,000

So a 20k trailer would leave you 10k for the max weight of the wet and loaded F-350 DRW before you bumped into the GCWR limit. That's not much wiggle room, but doable.

20% hitch weight would be 4,000 pounds. 13,300 minus 4,000 leaves 9,300 pounds for the max truck weight before you tied onto the trailer. That's not much wiggle room, but doable.

The 2011-up F-450 pickup would give you more GCWR, but not more GVWR. GVWR would still be your limiter. So still not much wiggle room for hauling people and stuff in the truck, but doable.

Quote:
I prefer used since it does not need to be a daily driver, I have just heard so many issues with the older 6.0 Diesels. Maybe stay with 2011 or newer?
Definitely stick with a 2011-up.The Ford 6.7L engine has proved to be strong and reliable if properly maintained.

Quote:
I have been told about the GRVW but they are far lower than the truck/trailer combo weight.
GCWR is the max weight of the truck and trailer combined. Basically it tells you how heavy a trailer you can pull over hill and dale without overheating anything in the drivetrain. But it ignores how much hitch weight you can haul without overloading the suspension, frame, tires, and brakes of your tow vehicle. That's what the GVWR tells you = the max weight you can have on the truck tires.

So the max combined weight of truck and trailer is 30,000 pounds, but the max weight (including hitch weight) on the truck tires in 13,300 pounds.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by FatboyM View Post
Do I need a DRW?
Yes.

Quote:
Can I get a F250 Diesel or F350?
F-250? No. F-350 SRW? No.

Here are the limiter numbers for the 2012 F-350 SRW diesel:

GVWR 11,500 pounds. That's your limiter. If you don't exceed the GVWR, then you won't exceed any other Ford weight limit.

Weight of the F-350 SRW diesel 4x4 with one passenger, toolbox, puppydog, toolbox full of tools and jacks, 5er hitch, but no trailer tied on: 8,500 to 9,000 pounds.

That leaves only 2,500 pounds for hitch weight. Nowhere near the 4,000 pounds of hitch weight capacity you need.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:15 PM   #5
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Personally I would be looking at a F450. When you compare a F350 dually and F450 they are really the same basic truck with only a few differences to improve towing ability on the 450. It would be nice if Ford offered the 450 in 2WD and extended cab instead of crew cab. Im sure a F350 could be made to work however going over the spec sheets would be needed. The length of your expected 5th wheel and weight a dually would be my minimum requirement. No doubt a diesel engine would be needed.
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Old 10-15-2014, 06:03 PM   #6
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If you know the weight of the trailer then read the truck towing specs published by the truck manufacturer.
Why do you continue to post such misleading info?

The Ford towing specs for a 2012 F-250 SRW 4x4 diesel say it can tow a 5er that grosses up to 15,200 pounds. But in the real world that is extremely overstated.

GCWR of 23,500 minus 15,700 tow rating = 7,800 pounds max truck weight before you tie onto the trailer. You cannot find an example of any wet and loaded 2012 F-250 SRW 4x4 CrewCab diesel that weighs only 7,800 pounds before you tie onto the trailer. My much-lighter '99.5 F-250 4x2 weighed more than that.

The limiter on that F-250 SRW is the 10,000 GVWR. 10,000 GVWR minus the 8,500 pounds weight of a wet and loaded pickup = 1,500 pounds max hitch weight. 1,500 pounds hitch weight with 18% pin weight is a 5er with max weight of 8,333 pounds. So what happened to the 15,200 pounds tow rating? It was a myth.

So unless you understand all the numbers involved with towing DO NOT rely on the manufacturer's tow rating - especially for an SRW pickup.
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:10 AM   #7
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As an owner of an F-450 (actually on my 2nd) I think it rides much nicer than my previous `05 F-350 dually and the turning radius is much tighter than that of the other Super Duty models. And the 2015 F-450 has returned to the older, and higher, GVWR (I believe it is around 14,500#) while the 2011-2014 F-450 GVWR is the same as the F-350 (13,300). BUT. My 2008 weighed in at 10,600# ready to tow. My 2012 weighs in at 9,600# ready to tow. So my pin weight capability is actually the same. However, my 2012 rides nicer than my 2008. I fell victim to Ford's advertising of better MPG's. NOT!!!!!!!! My 2008 actually got better MPG than my 2012.
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:27 AM   #8
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Live for today; tomorrow is gone and tomorrow may never come.
Is that what you intended to say? I suspect you intended "Live for today; yesterday is gone and tomorrow may never come."

But plan ahead so you can enjoy tomorrow if it gets here.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:48 PM   #9
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oops
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Old 10-17-2014, 12:32 AM   #10
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Thank you for the breakdown & information. I went to look today & it looks like the 450 DRW is going to be the best way
I was specifically looking @ the Voltage 3970 (dry 15920#, Hitch 3476#, cargo capacity 4080# =20000 # maxed) I don't see me going to the max, but I wanted breathing room.
We are not set in stone on the trailer, so we will keep looking. I am so new to this & get so bewildered when I see all these nice trailers being pulled by 350's or SRW trucks.
I did look @ the GMC 2500: Curb weight 7440, max payload 2733, Max GVWR 9900, GCWR 20500. So with the truck "loaded" with passengers & supplies (1000#)"8440#" I would subtract that number from 20500# (12060# is how much trailer I can tow.) How the heck do people tow 5th wheels with these trucks? (250/350 or 2500/3500)??
I am dense but I think I get it now? Then the "hitch" weight would count against the "Max payload" along with passengers/supplies? Therefore making the 5th wheel "lighter" b/c 20% in on the hitch/bed of truck.
Correct?
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:50 AM   #11
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I am dense but I think I get it now? Then the "hitch" weight would count against the "Max payload" along with passengers/supplies? Therefore making the 5th wheel "lighter" b/c 20% in on the hitch/bed of truck.
Correct?

Correct. Anything in the tow vehicle (TV) is added up and then subtracted from the trucks GVWR. The remaining is available for pin weight. 18-20% is a good number for doing the math. My trailer is actually 18%. The remaining trailer weight is on the trailer axles. So the wet weight of the truck + the 20% trailer GVWR should be less than the trucks GVWR. This is also how many 5er manufacturers get away with putting LR-G tires on a 5er with a 16000 - 17000 # GVWR (this is an entire conversation in itself). The weight those tires carry are max'ed if you are anywhere near the 5er GVWR. If the 5er you buy has an option for a higher rated tire go for that. It is another layer of comfort. I put LR-H on my 5er last tire change. Does nothing to increase the trailer GVWR, but it does give me an extra layer of comfort.

How do others do it. Many think if you can pull it everything is fine. They don't consider stopping the combination of truck/trailer plus the excess wear & tear on their truck. It's just not designed to do it. Now I will get slammed

BTW - i may be biased here, but you'll love the F-450.
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Old 10-17-2014, 05:20 PM   #12
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Talking

Awsome, I FINALLY understand it (such a rookie) !
We are leaning towards the GMC 3500 DRW or F350 DRW to be safe, now I just need to decide if I want to keep the Avalanche as the DD since I do not drive long distance daily but when I tow/travel I want to be sure we are good. Might go used now that I am positive about the trailering.
Oh yeah, SO true that the Truck sales person is not well informed.. "oh you can tow ANYTHING with this" (F250 SRW)
Thanks so much, great forum with minimal sarcastic, belittling or confusing posts.
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Old 10-17-2014, 05:32 PM   #13
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Awsome, I FINALLY understand it (such a rookie) !
We are leaning towards the GMC 3500 DRW or F350 DRW to be safe, now I just need to decide if I want to keep the Avalanche as the DD since I do not drive long distance daily but when I tow/travel I want to be sure we are good. Might go used now that I am positive about the trailering.
Oh yeah, SO true that the Truck sales person is not well informed.. "oh you can tow ANYTHING with this" (F250 SRW)
Thanks so much, great forum with minimal sarcastic, belittling or confusing posts.
If you do a lot of local short trips a newer emissions diesel would prove to be challenging. This is because all newer diesels have DPF's that need to be cleaned. This is an exhaust filter that cleans out the soot in the exhaust. It gets trapped in the DPF and in order to clean it out the truck will go into "regen". This is a process that adds fuel in the exhaust to raise the temps over 1000F to burn the soot in the DPF. This process can take 10-30 minutes and you need to really drive the truck on the express way for 15 or more miles to allow the regen to fully clean the DPF. If it never gets driven long enough the DPF will eventually plug up and the engine will be derated in power or idle only until the dealer performs a manual regen. So a gasser vehicle for local trips is a good idea or just be prepared to drive the truck on the express way if you get the regen message. Emergency response vehicles are having a hard time with these systems because they are hardly driven enough to fully clean the DPFs. I know someone at the local county EMS and he tells me all the time how many of their rigs go into derate on emergencies because the DPFs never get a chance to be cleaned fully.
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Old 10-17-2014, 05:39 PM   #14
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If you do a lot of local short trips a newer emissions diesel would prove to be challenging. This is because all newer diesels have DPF's that need to be cleaned. This is an exhaust filter that cleans out the soot in the exhaust. It gets trapped in the DPF and in order to clean it out the truck will go into "regen". This is a process that adds fuel in the exhaust to raise the temps over 1000F to burn the soot in the DPF. This process can take 10-30 minutes and you need to really drive the truck on the express way for 15 or more miles to allow the regen to fully clean the DPF. If it never gets driven long enough the DPF will eventually plug up and the engine will be derated in power or idle only until the dealer performs a manual regen. So a gasser vehicle for local trips is a good idea or just be prepared to drive the truck on the express way if you get the regen message. Emergency response vehicles are having a hard time with these systems because they are hardly driven enough to fully clean the DPFs. I know someone at the local county EMS and he tells me all the time how many of their rigs go into derate on emergencies because the DPFs never get a chance to be cleaned fully.
EXACTLY what I have been reading. I know nothing about these things, I am so glad I asked questions here. Thank you for the detailed info about how the DPF works. I am reading about using fuel additives...? Any other excellent info I am missing?
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