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Old 11-28-2006, 05:58 PM   #15
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I got my first tank of ULSD in September before going to Las Vegas for the week. My truck felt like it had lost some power while towing my fiver for about the first 40 miles or so. After that, my truck adjusted to the fuel and everything was back to normal. I did get about 1 to 1.5 mpg better fuel economy while towing than I had previously had. I contacted GM about the new fuel and they said that there should be no problems. We will see.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:05 PM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My truck felt like it had lost some power while towing my fiver for about the first 40 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mine did the same....but just the opposite in mileage. At first I thought I might have got some wet diesel.....but it leveled out in the first hour. This is gonna be interesting!
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:14 AM   #17
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There seems to be much confusion over the new fuel and regulations. After an extended conversation with someone at the EPA, I was told that the new fuel had to be sold exclusively for onroad use nationwide sometime in late 2010. Both fuels can legally be sold and used up to that time, but the pumps have to be marked either LSD or ULSD effective 6/1/06. Right. Violations occur if pumps aren't marked, or if they are marked incorrectly. Pumps that are marked ULSD can dispense a mixture of up to 20% LSD calculated over a years time up until the late 2010 date. If the pumps you use aren't marked, contact a district EPA office and they will contact the vendor. As for possible adverse effects in using the new fuel, a local diesel repair shop has seen failures of fuel filter seals in older Powerstrokes, and injection pumps in Cummins that they attribute to the new fuel. GM's Duramax seems unaffected at least for now. Just some more info to add to the confusion.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:45 AM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stylin':
There seems to be much confusion over the new fuel and regulations. After an extended conversation with someone at the EPA, I was told that the new fuel had to be sold exclusively for onroad use nationwide sometime in late 2010. Both fuels can legally be sold and used up to that time, but the pumps have to be marked either LSD or ULSD effective 6/1/06. Right. Violations occur if pumps aren't marked, or if they are marked incorrectly. Pumps that are marked ULSD can dispense a mixture of up to 20% LSD calculated over a years time up until the late 2010 date. If the pumps you use aren't marked, contact a district EPA office and they will contact the vendor. As for possible adverse effects in using the new fuel, a local diesel repair shop has seen failures of fuel filter seals in older Powerstrokes, and injection pumps in Cummins that they attribute to the new fuel. GM's Duramax seems unaffected at least for now. Just some more info to add to the confusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There are a couple of errors in this response. First and most important is that there can be no mixing of LSD with ULSD at the retial tank/ pumps. The 07 engines require S15. The 80% is the requirement that refiners production must meet now at the gate but they are allowed to degrade it up to certain limits and sell as LSD until 2010. The other issue is that it is not the injector pump on Cummins but the lift pump that has shown problems on older engines and Cummins issued a bulletin covering this in August of 2005.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:10 PM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ecker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stylin':
There seems to be much confusion over the new fuel and regulations. After an extended conversation with someone at the EPA, I was told that the new fuel had to be sold exclusively for onroad use nationwide sometime in late 2010. Both fuels can legally be sold and used up to that time, but the pumps have to be marked either LSD or ULSD effective 6/1/06. Right. Violations occur if pumps aren't marked, or if they are marked incorrectly. Pumps that are marked ULSD can dispense a mixture of up to 20% LSD calculated over a years time up until the late 2010 date. If the pumps you use aren't marked, contact a district EPA office and they will contact the vendor. As for possible adverse effects in using the new fuel, a local diesel repair shop has seen failures of fuel filter seals in older Powerstrokes, and injection pumps in Cummins that they attribute to the new fuel. GM's Duramax seems unaffected at least for now. Just some more info to add to the confusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There are a couple of errors in this response. First and most important is that there can be no mixing of LSD with ULSD at the retial tank/ pumps. The 07 engines require S15. The 80% is the requirement that refiners production must meet now at the gate but they are allowed to degrade it up to certain limits and sell as LSD until 2010. The other issue is that it is not the injector pump on Cummins but the lift pump that has shown problems on older engines and Cummins issued a bulletin covering this in August of 2005. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll stand corrected on the lift pump issue, but I'm repeating what an official at EPA told me. I could have misunderstood what he told me, but your explanation makes more sense.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:05 PM   #20
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ecker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stylin':
There seems to be much confusion over the new fuel and regulations. After an extended conversation with someone at the EPA, I was told that the new fuel had to be sold exclusively for onroad use nationwide sometime in late 2010. Both fuels can legally be sold and used up to that time, but the pumps have to be marked either LSD or ULSD effective 6/1/06. Right. Violations occur if pumps aren't marked, or if they are marked incorrectly. Pumps that are marked ULSD can dispense a mixture of up to 20% LSD calculated over a years time up until the late 2010 date. If the pumps you use aren't marked, contact a district EPA office and they will contact the vendor. As for possible adverse effects in using the new fuel, a local diesel repair shop has seen failures of fuel filter seals in older Powerstrokes, and injection pumps in Cummins that they attribute to the new fuel. GM's Duramax seems unaffected at least for now. Just some more info to add to the confusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There are a couple of errors in this response. First and most important is that there can be no mixing of LSD with ULSD at the retial tank/ pumps. The 07 engines require S15. The 80% is the requirement that refiners production must meet now at the gate but they are allowed to degrade it up to certain limits and sell as LSD until 2010. The other issue is that it is not the injector pump on Cummins but the lift pump that has shown problems on older engines and Cummins issued a bulletin covering this in August of 2005. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying to clarify my remarks. There can be no mixing at the pumps of LSD with ULSD in a tank when the pump is labeled ULSD, but you can mix ULSD with LSD in a pump marked LSD. And here is an explanation of the 20% rule that applies to that. This is directly from an official with the EPA.
"You got it right--if the pump is labeled ULSD it MUST be ULSD fuel. But
if a pump is labeled 500 it could be anything from 0 to 500 ppm. But
each facility, including each retail facility, has a 20% limit on how
much ULSD they receive that they can sell as 500--at retail no more than
20% of the 500 ppm fuel you sell can be fuel that was received as ULSD
(unless the station sells both types of fuel at the same time--then
there is no limit)."

I hope this clears up the confusion a little better.
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:38 PM   #21
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stylin':
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ecker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stylin':
:
I'm trying to clarify my remarks. There can be no mixing at the pumps of LSD with ULSD in a tank when the pump is labeled ULSD, but you can mix ULSD with LSD in a pump marked LSD. And here is an explanation of the 20% rule that applies to that. This is directly from an official with the EPA.
"You got it right--if the pump is labeled ULSD it MUST be ULSD fuel. But
if a pump is labeled 500 it could be anything from 0 to 500 ppm. But
each facility, including each retail facility, has a 20% limit on how
much ULSD they receive that they can sell as 500--at retail no more than
20% of the 500 ppm fuel you sell can be fuel that was received as ULSD
(unless the station sells both types of fuel at the same time--then
there is no limit)."

I hope this clears up the confusion a little better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you might guess there are pages of regulations that go along with changeover and both your 80% and the one I mentioned are operative. The best part is that as mid-October over 90 % of over the highway fuel production was ULSD so the whole issue is going to die pretty quickly except for some remote spots that got exemptions until 2010. Even those are feeling pressure to not wait because their customers need ULSD and are very unhappy that their local guy is waiving the exemption at them. BTW- the refineries are generally producing S8 and the balance of the std is to cover contamination inthe logisitcs chain (pipeline, trucks, tanks, etc) The S15 regulation is going to be enforced at the retail site.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:17 PM   #22
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I find the lift pump issue interesting. Calif has had USLD I believe since August. In mid October we relpaced our lift pump on our 45K miles '00 ISC because it was starting to leak. Coincidence?
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:44 PM   #23
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I had to replace the o-rings on the fuel filter assembly after a few tanks of S15. This is quite common on the 7.3 PSD, check out the forums on the DieselStop: http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php...&Board=73drivetrain1

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Old 12-09-2006, 11:18 AM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom and Patty:
I find the lift pump issue interesting. Calif has had USLD I believe since August. In mid October we relpaced our lift pump on our 45K miles '00 ISC because it was starting to leak. Coincidence? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The short answer is starting to look like yes.
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Old 12-09-2006, 01:33 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stylin':
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom and Patty:
I find the lift pump issue interesting. Calif has had USLD I believe since August. In mid October we relpaced our lift pump on our 45K miles '00 ISC because it was starting to leak. Coincidence? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The short answer is starting to look like yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cummins* Communication on Lift Pump Failures/ULSD
12/05/2006


*Customer Assistance Center
Cummins, Inc.
Columbus, Indiana, USA

The alert that we sent to the field related to possible fuel system leaks has so far proven to be unneeded.

We were concerned that some early leaks we saw, especially related to PT fuel pumps, might portend more leaks but this has not happened.

We have always had the odd fuel leak and this still occurs.

If a pump fails during warranty we will replace it.

We did recall early ISB engines with VP44 pumps installed in emergency vehicles, for lift pump replacement, with a new pump that incorporates a bypass circuit. We did this so that lift pump failure would have less chance of stopping the engine and stranding an emergency vehicle. This does not extend to non-emergency vehicles.

Lift pump failures that precipitated the recall were not related to leaks or low or ultralow sulfur fuels.

There are many rumors circulating about the effects of sulfur being in diesel fuel or sulfur being taken out of diesel fuel. Diesel fuel without sulfur is just as good, in all respects except one, when compared with today's fuels with sulfur.

Diesel fuel, in the United States, must for the first time meet a lubricity standard. The producers adjust the lubricity before they distribute the fuel. No further additives are needed to ensure proper fuel system lubrication.

The only negative effect of taking sulfur out of fuel is that the fuel becomes more expensive, somewhat negating the inherent cost advantage of running diesel engines when compared to other fuels. As we are certain you know, sulfur doesn't jump out of the fuel on command. It has to be removed using specialized equipment and chemical processes that add to the expense of producing the fuel.

We have seen a very few instances where the reduced aromatic content of the fuel has resulted in slight leaks from fuel systems. This is not expected to be an issue with many engines.

Basically the change to new fuel should be pretty easy for folks with the engines built prior to 2007 and for customers with the engines built in 2007 it will be necessary, for the short time it takes fuel stations to consume the remainder of the old fuel (maybe a month or two), to be certain they are not fueling with the older fuel.

There is an effect on diesel engines from the use of low or no sulfur fuel which we expect to be positive. The blowby gasses that normally pass through the engine crankcase will contain less or none of the chemically reactive sulfur and its compounds. This will tend to keep the engine oil cleaner during operation and allow important engine components like bushings, bearings and piston rings to live longer.

Diesel fuels containing sulfur or no sulfur each have the same specific heat, about 20,000 BTUs per pound. For that reason they give the same amounts of work for the same amount of fuel. That means the fuel economy per gallon will not be affected.

Over the years we have seen fuel economy decrease, somewhat, as diesel engine designs have been modified to meet the lower NOX limits imposed by government. This has been totally unrelated to sulfur in the fuel.

With lower sulfur fuels it is possible that some exhaust after treatment devices (catalytic converters) may be used to better effect, making it possible to further decrease harmful exhaust emissions.

If you use diesel fuel that does not meet the new federal low sulfur requirements that are going into effect for 2007, in a 2007 vehicle that requires the new fuel, it will produce particulate matter that will cause rapid plugging of the exhaust particulate trap. We don't anticipate producing engines for such vehicles until 2007.



Note this communication has been edited to remove personal and/or non-relevant material from the opening and closing. Nothing has been altered in the portion included. The alert mentioned in the opening sentence was the Bulletin issued in August 2005.
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Old 12-10-2006, 03:43 AM   #26
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stylin':
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom and Patty:
I find the lift pump issue interesting. Calif has had USLD I believe since August. In mid October we relpaced our lift pump on our 45K miles '00 ISC because it was starting to leak. Coincidence? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The short answer is starting to look like yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops! So the short answer should have been maybe? Or no?
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Old 12-12-2006, 06:35 PM   #27
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Note the discrepancies between the Cummins article and the Chevron position.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:08 PM   #28
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Hi, ok I have to ask the 60 million dollar question, Us older trucks will"
a}start leaking fuel all over the highway
b}start leaking oil or burning oil-on units over 100,000 + thousand miles
c}Run away and blow-up whth the usially loud Bang!
Did I miss anything?
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