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Old 11-02-2004, 02:48 AM   #15
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aviator:
George,
In Pa, if you tow anything under 10K, you are required to have a Class B. Check the Veh. Code.. I was a officer in Pa, Not to far north of you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never read the requirements that way which makes your interpretation thought provoking. Just for clarification, are you saying that a person towing a 2900# pop up with his 5000# minivan is required to have the non commercial class B license because he is pulling a trailer under 10,000#? I have a friend with a 27,000# Winnebago who just completed his tests for the non-commercial Class B. It was my understanding that the class B was all vehicles over 26,000#, and the class A was for all combinations where the trailer is over 10,000#.

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Old 11-02-2004, 03:26 AM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by George Miklas:
Anyone with an RV trailer over 10,000# must have a class A operator's license here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have the same (or similar) law in North Carolina and I think there're many other states with these type requirements.

I hold a non-commercial Class 'A' license for my over 10,001# GVWR trailer; had to take a special test which included driving the rig with the state's license examiner aboard to obtain it. I think a lot of folks ignore this requirement and just carry a Class 'C' license.
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:42 AM   #17
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just for clarification, are you saying that a person towing a 2900# pop up with his 5000# minivan is required to have the non commercial class B license because he is pulling a trailer under 10,000#?
George <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the code I found on PENNDOT's website. The key here is the 26,000+ lb gvwr. The guy with the 5000 lb minivan and 2900 lb popup is fine with a class C. I think I am fine with a class c with my 1 ton ford and any trailer while within my GCVWR because it is below 26000 lbs.

To sum up my interpretation:
26,001 LB and up GCVWR w/ Trailer over 10,000 lbs - Class A
26,001 LB and upGCVWR w/ Trailer Under 10,000 lbs - Class B
Anything Under 26,001 lb GCVWR - Class C

1504. Classes of licenses.
(a) Proper class of license required.--No person shall drive any motor vehicle upon a
highway in this Commonwealth unless the person has a valid driver's license for the type or class of
vehicle being driven.
(b) Notation of class on license.--The department upon issuing a driver's license shall
indicate on the license the type or general class or classes of vehicle or vehicles the licensee may
operate in accordance with the provisions of subsection (c).
(c) Qualifications of applicants.--The department shall establish by regulation the
qualifications necessary for the safe operation of the various types, sizes or combinations of vehicles
and the manner of examining applicants to determine their qualifications for the type or general class
of license applied for.
(d) Number and description of classes.--Licenses issued by the department shall be classified
in the following manner:
(1) Class A.--A Class A license shall be issued to those persons 18 years of age or
older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any combination of vehicles with a
gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of
the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
(i) The holder of a Class A license shall be deemed qualified to
operate those vehicles for which a Class B or Class C license is issued.
(ii) Where required under this title, appropriate endorsements must
be obtained.
(2) Class B.--A Class B license shall be issued to those persons 18 years of age or
older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any single vehicle with a gross
vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more or any such vehicle towing a vehicle having a
gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 10,000 pounds.
(i) The holder of a Class B license shall be deemed qualified to
operate those vehicles for which a Class C license is issued.
(ii) Where required under this title, appropriate endorsements must
be obtained.
(3) Class C.--A Class C license shall be issued to those persons 18 years of age or
older, except as provided in section 1503 (relating to persons ineligible for licensing; license
issuance to minors; junior driver's license), who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate
any single vehicle, except those vehicles requiring a Class M qualification, with a gross vehicle
weight rating of not more than 26,000 pounds or any combination of vehicles, except
combination vehicles involving motorcycles, that does not meet the definition of either Class A
or Class B of this section.
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:09 AM   #18
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Hmmmm! According to The NC DOT website, NC words theirs a little differently. I suppose most states will differ with the verbiage on this issue:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Class A:
Required to operate any combination of vehicles exempt from commercial driver license (CDL) requirements with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is greater than 10,000 pounds. Also required for operating any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds, if the vehicle being towed has a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds.

Class B:
Required to operate any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more that is exempt from CDL requirements, and any such vehicle while towing another vehicle with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or less.

Class C:
Required to operate any vehicle with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds that is exempt from CDL requirements and is not towing a vehicle with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds. Most drivers need only a Classified C license to operate personal automobiles and small trucks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:58 AM   #19
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That is is a big difference in how it is worded. In NC I would need a class B, and with the new trailer we are looking at I would need a class A. In PA I can still drive my rig with a class C. I personally like NC law better, it requires you to prove you know what you are doing.
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:59 PM   #20
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To Aviator and anyone else who thinks it's OK to run overloaded:

The laws of physics do NOT play nice. Your "safe" 3/4 ton truck is not in control of the combination if you ever (and I really hope you don't) end up in a real emergency maneuver. The rig is going to do whatever it wants to, even if your response is fast and appropriate.

Soap Box mode off.

L8r,
Steve
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Old 11-03-2004, 10:58 AM   #21
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OK Not to be out done

Here is the Texas types of Non CDL:

CLASSIFIED DRIVER'S LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521)
The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons
who are exempt from obtaining a Commercial Driver's License or persons
who are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver's License:

1. Class A driver's license permits a person to drive any vehicle or combination
of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds
or more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being
towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds; including a vehicle included in Class B
or Class C, except a motorcycle or moped.

2. Class B driver's license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
a. a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds
or more, and any such vehicle towing either a vehicle with a gross vehicle
weight rating that does not exceed 10,000 pounds, or a farm trailer
with a gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed 20,000 pounds;
b. a bus with a seating capacity of 24 passengers or more, including the
driver; and
c. a vehicle included in Class C.

3. Class C driver's license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
a. a single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that is not a Class A or B;
and
b. a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 26,001
pounds towing a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that does
not exceed 20,000 pounds.

Guess what - I still don't have a clue as to what type of license I should have
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Old 11-03-2004, 11:48 AM   #22
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Just thought I would chime in, I have a 35' HR Alumalite and pull it with my 03 Ram 2500. The length of the trailer does not matter, it is the weight. My trailer is rated at 7k pounds, has two 3500lb axles under it so I am way under my allowed weight. Now when I bought my truck I was told I could tow a 14K trailer legally. I know that I need to weigh my truck, loaded for travelling, and subtract that number from the GCWR to find out the weight I legally can pull. I'm not real concerned what my new trailer weighs as long as it is within a couple hundred pounds of my GCWR. I don't believe local law enforcement has the time or funds to pull over all RV's to see if they are overweight or overlength. Just my opinion. John
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Old 11-03-2004, 01:01 PM   #23
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I got clarification on the PA code, and Texas looks to be the same. Here is how it works out for me.

Tow Vehicle GVWR = 11,200
5th Wheel GVWR = 6,900
Combined VWR = 18,100
This is under 26,001, so no special license is required.

I do not see how anyone towing with a one ton truck (non-commercial)in PA would ever need anything other than a class C license, unless you are towing overloaded, and at that point who cares, you're not legal any way.
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Old 11-03-2004, 01:03 PM   #24
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here in British Columbia Canada they have
Recently changed the rules.
4600kg = 10141.26lbs
Our new Triple E T300FSXL 4531kg 9,990lbs
So we are under by 68.61kg or 151.26lbs

Driver Licensing
Requirements for Towing
a Recreational Trailer 1
Few recreational trailers
exceed 4,600 kg.
Most that exceed 4,600 kg are over 9 meters (28
feet) in length. If you are unsure of the weight
of your RV trailer, take it to a weigh scale and
have it weighed.
Most fifth wheel RV combinations do not
have air brakes.
Fast Fact Towing an RV of Less Than 4,600 kg
Most recreational trailers weigh less than 4,600 kg, and thus may be driven by a driver with a Class 5 or 7 passenger car driver's licence. An air brake endorsement is required if either the truck or trailer has air brakes.

Towing an RV of More Than 4,600 kg
If you want to tow an RV that weighs more than 4,600 kg and neither the recreational trailer nor your truck has air brakes, you need:
" a Class 1, 2 or 3 driver's licence, or
" a Class 4 or 5 driver's licence with a heavy trailer endorsement
(code 20), or
" a Class 4 or 5 driver's licence with a house trailer endorsement
(code 51).
To get a heavy trailer endorsement (code 20), you need to
" pass a Class 3 knowledge test,
" meet commercial driver vision and medical standards, and
" pass a Class 3 road test while towing a trailer weighing more
than 4,600 kg.
To get a house trailer endorsement (code 51), you need to:
" pass a recreational trailer knowledge test,
" meet driver vision and medical standards and
" pass a road test while towing a recreational trailer weighing
more than 4,600 kg.
If you want to tow an RV that weighs more than 4,600 kg and either the
recreational trailer or your truck has air brakes, you need a Class 1 driver's licence with an air brake endorsement.
To pass the tests to get a house trailer
endorsement, you need to study this guide.
For details on obtaining a Class 1, 2, or 3 driver's licence or a heavy trailer
endorsement, refer to Driving Commercial
Vehicles.
Driving Commercial
Vehicles is available at all ICBC driver licensing offices and on the internet at
www.icbc.com.
Fast Fact
3
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Old 11-03-2004, 04:32 PM   #25
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Rick, the way the stste of PA adds the GVWR of the truck and trailer is about as dumb as a box of rocks...maybe twice as dumb.

Adding my GVWR's together I get 25,900#, but mt GCW is only 20000# per Ford. You weigh the truck and trailer and we are close to 20,000#. I am close to need ing a commerical license in PA, but would never pull anything close to the license limit...dumb, dumb, dumb.

The problem with the way PA does the weight rating is on 5er, about 20% of the trailers GVWR is carried on the truck, so you are escentially being hit with the pin weight twice. Per the manufactures 20000# GCWR rating and my 11,500# truck GVWR, If the truck is fully loaded with cargo, I can only tow a max of 8500#. But loaded my trialer is 12000# and the truck is 8000#.

Granted they are adding tweo GVWR numbers, but that does not amke the vehicels, GCWR. Lawyers and accountants should never be trusted with anything remotely technical.

Ken
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Old 11-03-2004, 05:43 PM   #26
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rick A:
This is under 26,001, so no special license is required. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rick you're right, you required to have only a class C license. However its not because your GCW is under 26k#. It is because your power unit is under 26k# AND your trailer is under 10k#

the examiner in Mercer explained to me that the "26,000#" looks at the GVWR of the "Power Unit", and that the "10,000#" looks at the trailer regardless of the power unit. And RVs are not exampt, that is why there are commercial AND non-commercial licenses. An RVer (or farmer, or fireman) would have a non-commercial C, B, or A license. A commercial truck driver (or bus driver, or school bus driver) would have a commercial C, B, or A license.

Have you ever seen a 1-ton pick up pulling a tri-axle, 3-car, trailer? If that trailer was manufactured at 10,000# or more, then the driver of the 1-ton pick up must have a class A CDL. Take that same 1-ton pick up and pull a tri-axle RV manufactured at 10,000# or more, again the driver of the pick up must have a class A non-commercial license. The pick up might have a GVWR of 14,000# and a GCWR of 22,000# Drive the truck by itself and you only need a class C license. Hook on that big ole Alfa/Teton/Hitchhiker/Newmar tri-axle 13,400# GVWR trailer, and now you need a class A license.

These licenses are the law. You may never get pulled over for the wrong license, but it will become an issue if you're in an accident.

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Old 11-03-2004, 06:44 PM   #27
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Here is an example that is given in the PENNDOT driver manual. Now maybe they are wrong, but this is the concensus that I am getting on this:

"Class of Licenses
CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating
of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example:
Recreational vehicle when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at
15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds)."
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:19 PM   #28
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Has anyone ever gotten angry or frustrated at bicycle riders for not obeying traffic rules? Yep-me too! This is the same type of trigger, and it only takes one to give all others a bad reputation. Most often salesmen are the source of this overweight/ignorance problem. My wife and I were looking at new 5ers last summer, and the first thing I inspected was the nomenclature tag on the left front. If the tag indicated the 5er maximum weight rating was over my weight limit I ignored it. The business owner approachd me and asked what I was doing so I told him. He got antimated and quite vocal, telling me that was the wrong way to figure my weight limit. He said the right way was to use the unloaded weight figure. I tried to explain that figure was for a bare bones unit and did not accurately reflect actual weight. I will never return to that RV dealership. I know this is hard to believe, however it's true- We once met a Ford ranger coming towards us towing a small(24') 5er with a boat trailer behind last summer. I was astounded. I've never mentioned it before, believing everyone would think I was halucinating.
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