Go Back   iRV2 Forums > TRAVEL TRAILER, 5th WHEEL & TRUCK CAMPER FORUMS > Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-29-2014, 09:32 AM   #15
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight View Post
But I'm afraid you simply can't prove me wrong here.
The only thing that will prove you wrong is a CAT scale ticket that shows you exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle when loaded with 30,000-pound tandem axle fifth-wheel trailer.

Quote:
Don't exceed ratings, you can tow 37,600 grand total down the road. That's taking a 7,600 pound truck (With assumed driver weight and tank of fuel.) add that 30,000 pound trailer, if the hitch weight doesn't exceed the payload driving the GVWR over, you're golden.
Your math is right, but your logic is faulty. But again, only a CAT scale ticket will prove it.

Quote:
This is all fictitious, the hitch weight could be 3,000-4,000lbs, but that's under the payload.
A 30,000-pound fifth wheel RV trailer is going to have at least 17% pin weight and probably closer to 20%. If it's a "luxury" 5er such as a Travel Supreme, it couild have 22% to 24% hitch weight. That 4,000 number is based on a dry trailer, not a wet and loaded 5er that grosses 30,000 pounds. If your trailer is normal, then count on 20% hitch weight, or 6,000 pounds. If you manage to load it so it has only 17% hitch weight, that's still 5,100 pounds.

Plus estimating only 7,600 pounds for the wet and loaded truck is not realistic. My '99.5 F-250 diesel CrewCab longbed 4x2 weighed 8,000 pounds before I backed up to the 5er. That was just me and DW and a small puppydog, along with a toolbox with normal tools. A wet and loaded dually 4x4 is going to weigh several hundred pounds more. But again, only a CAT scale ticket will prove it.

Quote:
Have a great day, until then I'm exiting the conversation, I refuse to continue conversing at this level.
Then don't be surprised to learn that you're overloaded when you get to a CAT scale with a 30,000-pound 5er tied on to a wet and loaded 3500 DRW pickup .
__________________

__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-29-2014, 12:48 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kitts Hill, OH
Posts: 1,863
What i find most funny is that Dodge (Ram) is playing with numbers as well.

They have 2 trucks bigger and heavier than their 3500 (4500 + 5500) and while they do have higher payloads (7,724 + 11,786 lbs) as you would expect their tow rating are lower than the 3500??!?
Max Tow ratings are 22,750 lbs. for the 4500, 29,600 lbs for the 5500.
These are off the 2014 Ram truck website.

it was a nice surprise to see this page, have a look:
http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_g...efore_you_buy/

I contend "being overloaded" Depends on speed and conditions.

Many would say towing 30,000 with a 10,000 lb truck would have very wrong proportions.
But The very same proportions are Very legal and as designed in OTR trucks 60,000 trailer and load 20,000 tractor.
__________________

__________________
(RVM#26) THE U-RV 94 F-700/24 foot U-haul box home built RV
Mekanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 01:53 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
sknight's Avatar
 
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 908
One thing I need to add to my previous post, it's what I get for posting late at night.

Per the Ram website, payload is a max of 7,320 with a Laramie package coming in at 6,710. That should have the 6,000 hitch weight covered easily. Honestly, I'm not sure why I latched onto 3-4,000lbs instead of the 5-6,000 I meant to say.
__________________
2001 HO Cummins powered Dodge 2500
2014 Sierra 346RETS
Nights camped in 2014-28
sknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 02:57 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
wingnut60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wherever the Suites is
Posts: 2,982
Just for grins, what is the GVWR/pin wt on the Sierra?
Joe
__________________
'15 38RSSA Mobile Suites
'05 36TK3 Mobile Suites--retired but not forgotten
'17 F450--trying one more Ford
'09 F450--died, replaced with '10--retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 03:45 PM   #19
Registered User
 
Forest River Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Western, MA
Posts: 619
These engineers you speak of Wren... The ones setting the GVWR and other limits on trucks. Are these the same guys who can't program a fuel gauge to read accurately? LOL... Well actually, they could if they wanted to, but for other reasons have chosen not to. Those reasons are up to interpretation, but if I were to venture a guess, it's to protect us stupid Americans from running out so often. Same goes to weight ratings. Mathematically, you are USUALLY right when you offer your long winded advice on being overloaded. However, that is considering you take the ratings at face value. I've already proven to you that this isn't always the case as per the SRW 250 vs. 350 Fords being identical other than the taller block and upper overload spring. But yet these trucks have very different ratings. How can that be if ratings are to be taken at face value? So, one must consider that in that particular case, it's not the engineers setting the rating but rather the marketing dept. So, let's take that a step further and consider that perhaps it's the bean counters fearing our litigious society setting some limits. They know that if they gave us the real break points, we silly Americans would push them and sue after a failure. So, it's safer for them to dial it back a bit and let us cowboys push that lowered number and little do we know that we are no where near the real limit. Of course, this is just my theory and I have no way to prove it. On the flip side though, you have no way to prove your theory that engineers are setting the ratings as black and white fact with no outside influence from other departments within the manufacturer. All we can do is do what we feel is safe and not lecture people who believe differently too much. All of us seem to easily achieve the first part but many fail the second thinking we are doing the greater good when in actuality, we are just trying to feel smarter than we are by pontificating anonymously on the net. Anyone who thinks they have all the facts in the overloaded debates or better yet, the ST vs. LT tire debate is grossly arrogant. FastEagle can read his documentation on tires and Wren his on weights, but there is a bigger picture out there with so many details, variations, and scenarios that we can't possibly know 100% for sure on any side of these never ending debates...
__________________
taken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 04:19 PM   #20
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,919
What puzzles me is this statement "
After a media event Ford held in mid-July touting the F-450's towing claim, some analysts -- and a great number of online comments -- disagreed that the F-450 is in the same class as the F-350.
"That is a Class 4 truck under the skin," said Dave Sullivan, manager of product analysis for AutoPacific. "It has all the equipment of all of their Class 4 trucks. They call it the F-450, not F-350. This has significant hardware changes to Ford's own Class 3 Super Duty. That's what puts it into the next class," regardless of the gross vehicle weight rating."

So what I gather here is to pull safely the advertised weight the F450 has some stronger parts than the F350. But the F350DRW is stronger then the F350 SRW. But if the Ram also safely pulls similar weight, it will also need to have similar parts. So whether you put F350, 450, or Escort on the side of the truck, they are all the same class do to rated payload and towing. Heck I bet a new generation F250 is rated higher than a 15 year old DRW 350.
__________________
jamesrxx951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 04:29 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
caissiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,312
Well said.
__________________
Barbara and Laurent, Hartland Big Country 3500RL. 39 ft long and 15500 GVW.
2005 Ford F250 SD, XL F250 4x4, Long Box, 6.0L Diesel, 6 Speed Stick, Hypertech Max Energy for Fuel mileage of 21 MPusG empty, 12.6 MPusG pulling the BC. ScangaugeII for display..
caissiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 09:31 PM   #22
Member
 
Kingw2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 69
There are many things in this world that are WAY over engineered and made to be absolutely dummy proof. Doesn't mean its unsafe to go beyond what's written on paper, it's just written on paper to protect someone from a lawsuit. ie(mcdonalds got sued for coffee burning a women , now there is a warning on every cup). 65 mph posted on an interstate, doesn't make it unsafe to drive 66mph. I see this incredible over engineering and ridiculous OSHA standards daily in the construction world. I have to wear a hard hat and a reflective safety vest in an open store remodel even where shoppers are walking around. It's all about liability for these company's which if I were in their shoes I would do the same thing to protect myself. Long and short, in my opinion a 3/4 ton srw diesel is plenty capable of hauling 90% of the fifth wheels out there. Most 3/4 and 1 ton srw trucks are the same except for 1 leaf spring and as far as braking. The trucks not stopping the fiver, the trailer brakes are.
__________________
Kingw2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 09:09 AM   #23
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingw2001 View Post
The trucks not stopping the fiver, the trailer brakes are.
True, but the truck brakes have to stop the weight of the truck, and the weight of the truck incudes hitch weight.
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 01:18 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
glennwest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,085
I get into trouble with the payload. On my truck the overload springs are arched backwards with my Teton hooked up. We are within GM ratings on towing and by door frame tag good on rear axle, but that spring is not a pretty sight.
__________________
2003 Teton Grand Freedom. 2006 Freightliner Century 120 with Detroit 14L and Ultrashift.. Full time going from job to job. Building and maintaining plants across the USA. Sold 2006 Mobile Suites 32TK3
glennwest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 09:10 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kitts Hill, OH
Posts: 1,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennwest View Post
I get into trouble with the payload. On my truck the overload springs are arched backwards with my Teton hooked up. We are within GM ratings on towing and by door frame tag good on rear axle, but that spring is not a pretty sight.
I know to look at them it wouldn't seem so but Leaf springs have changed quite a bit in the last 30 years.
Many leaf springs to get a batter ride and less friction have went to longer spring and less leafs. These modern spring sets are usually are much flatter to start with.
Example:
My 94 F-700 (The U-RV) has a 10K front axle rating. it has 10 leafs per side.
The school bus I drive (99 Navstar) also has a 10K front axle It has 2 leafs per side.
The 2 leafs are thicker and longer then the 10 pack. it does ride a bit better than my Ford. That may or may not have to do with the light curb weight of my Ford for its axle ratings.
__________________
(RVM#26) THE U-RV 94 F-700/24 foot U-haul box home built RV
Mekanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2014, 08:37 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
jimcumminsw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Oswego IL
Posts: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
True, but the truck brakes have to stop the weight of the truck, and the weight of the truck incudes hitch weight.
I have resisted entering this thread until now; since to me this was nothing more than a trolling expedition. Now I have a question for you, when you made the statement above. What are you getting at?

Would you not say that the braking system on a dually truck should be able to adequately stop the truck with all equipment that is being carried and attached to a truck? Will this is the same braking system, brake rotor and caliper size that is on the 3500 SRW and 2500 SRW equipped with a diesel engine trucks for my year (2008) Ram. They also have the same engine braking capacity with the VGT on them. I believe this is true for the following years also 2007.5 and up till 2012MY trucks. I need to review the 2013.5 and 2014 trucks to see if this follows through on the Ram truck line also.

Here is the link to the Ram body builders guide to substantiate this claim: http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2008/docs/dr/ts.pdf

Jim W.
__________________
Jim & Jill
Sold: 2010 318SAB Cougar:New: 2016 Cedar Creek 34RL. 2008 Dodge 6.7LCummins the original 6.7L engine, w/68RFE Auto
jimcumminsw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2014, 09:17 AM   #27
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimcumminsw View Post
Now I have a question for you, when you made the statement above. What are you getting at?
I'm explaining another reason you should not exceed the GVWR of your tow vehicle. Several factors go into calculating the GVWR, including braking power, frame strength, and the weight capacity of axles, suspension, tires, and wheels. Brakes are designed to stop the weight of the truck up to the GVWR of the truck, but trailers are assumed to have brakes that will stop the weight on the trailer axles.
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2014, 12:07 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Jack1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by taken View Post
These engineers you speak of Wren... The ones setting the GVWR and other limits on trucks.... Same goes to weight ratings. Mathematically, you are USUALLY right....However, that is considering you take the ratings at face value. ..

So, one must consider that in that particular case, it's not the engineers setting the rating but rather the marketing dept......

Of course, this is just my theory and I have no way to prove it.

On the flip side though, you have no way to prove your theory that engineers are setting the ratings as black and white fact with no outside influence


Are you suggesting that we all ignore the science based engineering in favor of your "opinion"? Of course I am going to take the ratings at "face value".....since I do not have the $$$$ to hire a dozen MIT engineers...and the millions of $$$ to set-up a research testing facility...to double check the Manufacturers ratings!

Are you also suggesting some sort of Industry "conspiracy theory" where the evil marketing department is out to undermine the engineers and purposefully harm the consumer ....Why? Is there more profit in selling half-tons?


It is not necessary to "prove" that the engineers are setting the ratings as black and white fact with no outside influence......the engineers are regulated by their profession & are legally liable for their ratings. This isn't good enough for you?

I just don't get it...."what" exactly are you suggesting?
__________________

__________________
Jack & Maggie
04-Rexhall Roseair (37)
Cummins ISC / Spartan
Jack1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
tow



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Demco Tow Bars wil01 Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 1 07-26-2014 06:45 PM
Tow Bar Failures - looking for better system Nowayout Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 62 07-24-2014 09:52 PM
Tow dolly registration in VIRGINIA Elexwiz Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 4 05-08-2014 09:10 AM
Please Welcome Our New Sponsor - Acme Tow Dolly DriVer RV Industry Press 11 07-24-2013 10:29 AM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.