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Old 07-31-2014, 09:02 PM   #29
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The truck maker sets his trucks GVWR and the GAWRs. The truck maker may set any GVWR he chooses up to the sum of the GAWRs.
The trucks brakes are a function of the GAWRs which is one reason DOT allows the trucks GVW to be the sum of the axle ratings and of course as everyone should know the tires/wheels are determined by the highest GAWR per the FMVSS's.

SO WHATS IN A gvwr ???

Fords F350 SRW 10000 GVWR 6.7 crew cab 172.4 wb 4x4 has a 2360 payload.
Fords F350 SRW 11200 GVWR 6.7 crew cab 172.4 wb 4x4 has a 3560 payload.

Both trucks are identical with the same GAWRs.
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:28 PM   #30
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I am constantly gob-smacked by the paranoia in the US about towing capability. My uncle towed an 1800 pound TT all over Europe for over 20 years behind a 55 horsepower (on a really good day) Austin 4-door sedan with a 4-speed stick tranny and drum brakes. They eventually upgraded to a 2-liter version (75 HP). Sure, they weren't the fastest greyhound on the track, but they never had a wreck either.

Maybe the issue in this country is with the insurance companies. Our first experience with towing was a vacation in northern California back in 1969. We had a Ford Falcon wagon with the 200 cubic inch 6-cyliner engine. We'd booked a pop-up for the trip, but when we went to collect it, it was such a heap of mold and mildew, we rejected it.

As a compromise, the rental company rented us a 20' TT. I figure, since uncle George had towed his TT with the Austin, our 3.3 liter Falcon wouldn't have a problem. I didn't realis that the POS 3.3 liter engine only produced 80 horsepower.

As it happened, the engine power wasn't the issue - it was the 4-wheel drum brakes. We had two very scary incidents, one descending the coast range in northern California and another on I-5 near Grant's Pass. In both cases, requiring heavy braking, the brakes faded to almost no friction. In the moutains, I had to take a gravel escape road to get us stopped. On I-5 we nearly rolled the whole rig when we arrived at a diversion that funnelled the NB traffic through the median into the SB side. It was on the down-hill reun into grant's Pass OR.

We came close to running into the back of a tractor trailer whose back wheels were locked and smoking.

All my cars since have had disc brakes, at least on the front and preferably on all 4 wheels.

My current family car is an '03 Kia Sedona, with a US tow rating of 3500 pounds. In Europe. the exact same vehicle is rated to tow 3,000 Kg. Can anyone explain why US tow ratings are so wimpy?
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Old 08-01-2014, 08:52 AM   #31
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JIMLIN,
Wounn't the max GVWRs be the LOWER of the GAWRs or the tire capacity?
Joe
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Old 08-01-2014, 07:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut60 View Post
Wounn't the max GVWRs be the LOWER of the GAWRs or the tire capacity?
Joe
Tire capacity is part of the computation to arrive at GAWR. So tire capacity should always be equal to or greater than GAWR. And combined GAWR should always be equal or greater than GVWR.

Ignore the rules for commercial trucks. Pickups towing private RV trailers are not commercial trucks. On my Ford pickups, combined front and rear GAWR exceeded GVWR by a substantial margin, and tire weight capacity exceeded GAWRs by a substantial margin..

Examples:

2012 F-150 SuperCrew 4x2 EcoBoost with 6.5' bed:
fGAWR =3,750
rGAWR =3,850
Combined GAWR = 7,600
Combined tire max weight capacity 9,084 (4,542 per axle or 2,271 per tire).
GVWR 7,100

1999.5 F-250 CrewCab 4x2 diesel with 8' bed
fGAWR = 4,850
rGAWR = 6,084
Combined GAWR = 10,934
Combined tire max weight capacity 12,168
GVWR 8,800
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Old 08-01-2014, 09:15 PM   #33
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Are you suggesting that we all ignore the science based engineering in favor of your "opinion"? Of course I am going to take the ratings at "face value".....since I do not have the $$$$ to hire a dozen MIT engineers...and the millions of $$$ to set-up a research testing facility...to double check the Manufacturers ratings!

Are you also suggesting some sort of Industry "conspiracy theory" where the evil marketing department is out to undermine the engineers and purposefully harm the consumer ....Why? Is there more profit in selling half-tons?


It is not necessary to "prove" that the engineers are setting the ratings as black and white fact with no outside influence......the engineers are regulated by their profession & are legally liable for their ratings. This isn't good enough for you?

I just don't get it...."what" exactly are you suggesting?
I'm suggesting that you have a very simple take on things to believe that the ratings on trucks are set by engineers and that there is no proof that they are. I think I made that pretty clear. And I never said it was to endanger the consumer, I said it was to protect the manufacturer. I agree 100% that engineers are regulated but it's not engineers publishing ratings. It's FOMCO, GM, and Ram corporate. Of course it would be a liability if the manufacturer posted ratings higher than the engineers speced. That's not what I'm suggesting though. It would only help a company to underrate their product liability wise. You really need to read before posting. Riddle me this friend, why are SRW F350's rated higher than SRW F250's? Same exact truck with identical part numbers throughout other than one overload spring but very different ratings. Also, Why can you order a F350 with the GVWR of a 250 in states where it's more expensive to register a 350? There nothing different but the door jamb sticker but yet a lower rating. You think engineers did that? LOLOL. What happened to people that actually think in this world? IIB...
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Old 08-01-2014, 09:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut60 View Post
JIMLIN,
Wounn't the max GVWRs be the LOWER of the GAWRs or the tire capacity?
Joe
Tire capacity is always a bit above the highest single GAWR. I don't know of any truck that comes OEM with tires/wheels/springs/brakes/all suspension parts capacity less than the vehicle mfg certified GAWRs.



Quote:
Wren says;
Ignore the rules for commercial trucks. Pickups towing private RV trailers are not commercial trucks.
Who said anything about commercial trucks ??
All private use and commercially registered vehicles on the road come under the same fed axle weight limits enforced by the states.
Enforcement is usually done by a states commercial officers as not many regular troopers/deputys/city cops/etc have been through size and weights training school.

Study this email (snipped for length as its long) answer from a CA commercial vehicle section commander that was asked by a RV.net member about GVWR;

"This is in response to your electronic mail dated October 14, 2009.
First, allow me to apologize for the untimely response to your e-mail.
My staff recently received your request and by the date of your e-mail,
it appears to have been lost in the system.

You were requesting information pertaining to state laws limiting the gross vehicle weight
rating (GVWR) and/or gross combined weight rating (GCWR) for fifth wheel
and recreational vehicle owners. I have answered each of your questions
in the order asked.

Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”
A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.

Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.

I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.
Sincerely,

S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"

States are all on the same axle/weights page that way private use trucks and commerce moves freely across state lines.
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Old 08-01-2014, 09:33 PM   #35
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Can anyone explain why US tow ratings are so wimpy?
Frank, I just so happen to have a very interesting write up that seems to answer your question...

And it's full of math. Wren should love it....

Link: Tow me down!

This and a hugely litigious society...
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:37 PM   #36
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And the beat goes on...the beat goes on....

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Old 08-02-2014, 12:25 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taken View Post
Frank, I just so happen to have a very interesting write up that seems to answer your question...

And it's full of math. Wren should love it....

Link: Tow me down!

This and a hugely litigious society...
I read the whole article. good info really.
I figured speed was a big part of it.

From the article:
Quote:

Bottom line - Can a tow vehicle pull a heavier trailer there than is rated for here in the US? Yes, with some provisions:

1. The closer the trailer weight gets to the vehicle weight the slower you will need to drive.

2. DO NOT exceed 65 mph with a tongue weight in the 4-7% range, this is a guaranteed way to sway and 65 is the max, go slower in regards to #1.

3. None of this takes into account crosswinds, cooling systems, hp, or braking effectiveness.

...


I'll admit I've BTDT on all 3 of their examples.
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:02 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taken
I'm suggesting that you have a very simple take on things to believe that the ratings on trucks are set by engineers and that there is no proof that they are. I think I made that pretty clear.

What happened to people that actually think in this world? IIB...
OK....you are correct.....I have a very simple take on things as I prefer to use the Manufacturer's published ratings for GVWR, GCWR, GAWR, Tires, etc and choose to stay within these ratings & formulas in order to determine the appropriate pairing of a tow vehicle with the trailer. Since these ratings/formula are the same ones the courts, the police, the insurance underwriters, the national transport safety board, highway enforcement officers, etc. rely upon..... it really doesn't matter whether the ratings are set by engineers or as a part of an evil conspiracy by the Manufacturers marketing department to trick us into buying "more" truck than we actually need.

I'm suggesting that "thinking people" in this world understand that if they exceed these published/recognized ratings and are found to have caused a fatal traffic accident... then they may well find themselves in considerable trouble and held liable for their decision to ignore the ratings....Just because you say there no difference between an F250 & an F350.... I doubt " your opinion" is going to matter very much at that point!

What is wrong with using the manufacturers rating to understanding the principles of towing safely and the limits and capacity of your vehicle? If you are unwilling to rely on these ratings.... "What" is the average consumer going to use to determine if they are towing safely? If we accept your premise that the ratings have no foundation in engineering science and are simple fabrications of the Marketing Dept......where does this take us?
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:46 AM   #39
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OK....you are correct.....I have a very simple take on things as I prefer to use the Manufacturer's published ratings for GVWR, GCWR, GAWR, Tires, etc and choose to stay within these ratings & formulas in order to determine the appropriate pairing of a tow vehicle with the trailer. Since these ratings/formula are the same ones the courts, the police, the insurance underwriters, the national transport safety board, highway enforcement officers, etc. rely upon..... it really doesn't matter whether the ratings are set by engineers or as a part of an evil conspiracy by the Manufacturers marketing department to trick us into buying "more" truck than we actually need.

I'm suggesting that "thinking people" in this world understand that if they exceed these published/recognized ratings and are found to have caused a fatal traffic accident... then they may well find themselves in considerable trouble and held liable for their decision to ignore the ratings....Just because you say there no difference between an F250 & an F350.... I doubt " your opinion" is going to matter very much at that point!

What is wrong with using the manufacturers rating to understanding the principles of towing safely and the limits and capacity of your vehicle? If you are unwilling to rely on these ratings.... "What" is the average consumer going to use to determine if they are towing safely? If we accept your premise that the ratings have no foundation in engineering science and are simple fabrications of the Marketing Dept......where does this take us?
Again, your not reading before posting and it's getting tiresome explaining everything to you when you don't analyze what's already been posted. To address paragraph one, I never stated anyone was evil. Not sure why you keep typing that. I said it was common sense on the manufacturers part to protect them from litigation. I would do the same if it was up to me. And, if you don't think fear of our court system hangs over decisions in all aspects of business then you are more simple and uninformed than I first thought.

To address paragraph two, this is internet nonsense that is as rare as hens teeth in the real world. Everyone always brings this accident scenario up with no real world examples. If your truly afraid of something that has zero odds of happening like that, you better hide in your cellar for the rest of your life. Ohhhh, it's a big scary world out there. What's worse for you yet is that 99% of the RV world has no idea what a forum is and have far less regard for ratings than I. My god man, your surrounded out there on the road. Better buy a tank for your next truck. Also, it's not "my opinion" that the 350 and 250 are identical. I've personally looked up every part number to verify. Same truck other than on upper overload spring. Not opinion. Fact.

To address paragraph three, I never said ratings had no basis in engineering fact. You really don't read before typing do you? I said they were in face "based" on engineering numbers but tweaked to protect both the manufacturer from litigation and to protect Americans who tend to push the limit from themselves. So again, no one is evil here. I'm saying quite the contrary. Well, except for the court system and those that abuse it causing fundamental change to our country.

Another thought, since you seem to have taken over the fear monger role from Wren, can you address the first line of my first post in this thread? What can't your beloved engineers program a fuel gauge correctly? Every vehicle I've owned in the last ten years (and that's 10 of them of which 8 were bought new) have read 0 miles to empty with between 2.5-5 gallons left in the tank. Funny how it's always wrong in the safer more helpful direction. Surely engineers who design weight bearing components to break when you go one lb over the rating could also design a gauge with a similar margin of error, no?

Lastly, one other thing that you neglected to notice. My truck is actually rated to handle the weights of the trailer in my sig line. Who would of thought? I'm actually under on all of them. I never said it was stupid to ignore ratings as I myself took them into consideration when pairing my truck and trailer. I simply said that they were ratings and not break points. Ratings are set with a high margin of error or cushion to protect those publishing them. Break points are not.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:13 AM   #40
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Ford is so upset over the Tow ratings being used now that they are threatening to sue Chrysler over this.

Why Ford Could Sue Chrysler Over Pickup Claims (F, FIATY, GM)

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140728/RETAIL03/307289955?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Jim W.
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Old 08-04-2014, 03:37 PM   #41
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Ford should just rebadge the F450 to an optional F350 just like Daimler/govt motors/Fiat chrylser/Ram does with their 3500. If the payload is rated exactly the same per DOT regulations and it has a higher towing capacity there is no argument. However if the Payload or other specifications puts the F450 into DOT regulation class 4 there is no argument their. It would be a class 4 truck and not 3 and Ford will just have to up the specs for the F350.
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