Go Back   iRV2 Forums > TRAVEL TRAILER, 5th WHEEL & TRUCK CAMPER FORUMS > Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-28-2014, 11:50 AM   #1
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Much ado about tow ratings

Ford and Ram quarrel over HD pickup towing title.

Sounds like two Junior High kids arguing over a baseball game, except there is billions of dollars at stake. I have an MBA from a good school, but I can't believe that the buying public is so stupid that they are concerned over the claimed tow ratings of a pickup. Neither the Ford nor the Dodge can tow a trailer as heavy as the tow rating without being overloaded. How dumb do they think we are? Good thing I'm not in advertising, huh?

You may have to register for a "free limited subscription" to read that article. I'm not a subscriber and I can read it because I registered years ago. Note that under "choose your subscription" you can ask for a free limited subscription that allows you to read up to two articles per day.
__________________

__________________
Grumpy ole man with over 50 years towing experience. Now my heaviest trailer is a 7,000-pound enclosed cargo trailer, RV is a 5,600 pound Skyline Nomad Joey 196S, and my tow vehicle is a 2012 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost SuperCrew.
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-28-2014, 12:07 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Skip426's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Powell River, B.C.
Posts: 14,971
I agree 100% , but until people towing at the "posted ratings " have accidents and can prove they were doing nothing wrong , and start class action law suits, against these manufacturers nothing will change.
GCWR numbers and the calculation of same, are complicated for a reason ; to give the companies legal protection when the wrecks start happening.
__________________

__________________
99DSDP 3884, Freightliner, XC, CAT 3126B, 300 HP /ALLISON 3060
2000 Caravan toad, Remco & Blue Ox.
Skip426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 12:34 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
sknight's Avatar
 
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 908
I've got a nickel that says the same discussions were had when pickups crossed the 10,000, 15,000 and 20,000 pounds towing marks. Too much. Overloaded. Death is imminent.

Can't speak for the Fords, but the Rams passed the J2807 certification. Isn't that proof enough that apparently, indeed it can tow that much?
__________________
2001 HO Cummins powered Dodge 2500
2014 Sierra 346RETS
Nights camped in 2014-28
sknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 01:29 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
lanerd's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Home in warm Sou Calif for the winter.
Posts: 1,399
The problem here is that the mfg'ers tow ratings are NOT derived around towing a travel trailer or a 5th wheel. They come up with these number by towing a trailer that has wheels at each corner and virtually no tongue weight (remember the Toyota Tundra/Space Shuttle ).

In any case, the tow ratings are redundant as all mfg'ers have a fine print CYA clause stating that regardless of what you tow, no OTHER weight ratings for that particular vehicle should be exceeded.
__________________
Ron, Sandie and Lilly
2013 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH 400 ISL | 2011 GMC Terrain SLT-2
Roadmaster All Terrain | US Gear Unified Brake System | Pressure Pro
lanerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 02:32 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
tuffr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Palm Coast Florida
Posts: 2,458
I have to agree that the Ram 3500 competes with the Ford F-350. That the Ram 3500 frame is stiffer than the Ford F-350 frame.

Oh - the F-450 can come with a factory pick-up bed...ugh, that may change everything.

Anyway - my hat is off to Ram, Ford and Chevy for building much better trucks than 10 years ago.
__________________
tuffr2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 02:38 PM   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight View Post
Can't speak for the Fords, but the Rams passed the J2807 certification. Isn't that proof enough that apparently, indeed it can tow that much?
No, not at all. It's proof that it can pull that much without overheating the drivetrain, but not that it can tow that much without being overloaded.

The SAE J2807 spec applies only to GCWR (and tow ratings), and ignores GVWR (and payload available for hitch weight). So you could be well within the GCWR but be overloaded over the GVWR or other weight ratings of the tow vehicle.

All pickups with single rear tires will exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle when pulling a tandem-axle trailer that weighs the tow rating, and J2807 does not address that problem.

My F-150 has GCWR of 14,000 pounds, but it's overloaded with a GCW of 11,420 pounds.

Toyota said the j2807 spec reduced their claimed GCWR on the Tundra by 200 pounds. So reduce my F-150 GCWR by 200 pounds and you get 13,800. That's still wildly optimistic compared to the actual limit of less than 11,420 pounds gross combined weight (GCW).
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 05:50 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Naples, Fl.
Posts: 1,303
The OP says that the manufacturers are arguing about tow ratings like a couple of junior high kids.

Seems to me we are doing the same thing here.
__________________
Camping Rig: 2006 Outback 27 RSDS--
2005 Dodge 3500 - Dually- Cummins
Full time since June 2006
Dog Folks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 06:48 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
sknight's Avatar
 
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
No, not at all. It's proof that it can pull that much without overheating the drivetrain, but not that it can tow that much without being overloaded.

The SAE J2807 spec applies only to GCWR (and tow ratings), and ignores GVWR (and payload available for hitch weight). So you could be well within the GCWR but be overloaded over the GVWR or other weight ratings of the tow vehicle.

All pickups with single rear tires will exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle when pulling a tandem-axle trailer that weighs the tow rating, and J2807 does not address that problem.

My F-150 has GCWR of 14,000 pounds, but it's overloaded with a GCW of 11,420 pounds.

Toyota said the j2807 spec reduced their claimed GCWR on the Tundra by 200 pounds. So reduce my F-150 GCWR by 200 pounds and you get 13,800. That's still wildly optimistic compared to the actual limit of less than 11,420 pounds gross combined weight (GCW).

It's simply hilarious to me, you exceed ANY rating by one pound and the weight police will crucify you.

Now, with an independent SAE rating, which was gospel until recently, "At the rated number, they're overloaded."

I'm waiting for one thing that has flown over the nay sayers heads.

They're overloaded according to whom?

The 2015 Ram 3500, properly equipped, has a tow rating of 30,000 with a GCWR of 37,600 pounds.

According to the OP, this is not overloaded.

So I'll ask the question, overloaded according to whom? Until you can answer that, there's no actual point to this.

Did Ford improperly rate your truck? Apparently, that's why the SAE rating was put into place, to bring it into line with reality. It's also based off a base weight and diminishes quickly when options go on.

It's all about smart choices, staying within rated limits. According to the ratings, the trucks listed in the article are not overloaded. Outside that, YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Folks View Post
The OP says that the manufacturers are arguing about tow ratings like a couple of junior high kids.

Seems to me we are doing the same thing here.
No kidding.
__________________
2001 HO Cummins powered Dodge 2500
2014 Sierra 346RETS
Nights camped in 2014-28
sknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 07:41 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
caissiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,312
It sure is.
I have been reading about this for 20 years and still being told that most trucks are overloaded while not.

It's very simple when towing a well maintain RV. Most truck will be able to tow safely up to the GCWR while the rear axle and tires are not overloaded.
Most GVWR is for the protection of the manufacturer, so fine prints are used.
I own an F250 that is registered for 13200 lbs and no one will allow me to register it for less.
And it makes it legal all over America.
__________________
Barbara and Laurent, Hartland Big Country 3500RL. 39 ft long and 15500 GVW.
2005 Ford F250 SD, XL F250 4x4, Long Box, 6.0L Diesel, 6 Speed Stick, Hypertech Max Energy for Fuel mileage of 21 MPusG empty, 12.6 MPusG pulling the BC. ScangaugeII for display..
caissiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 08:38 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,079
IMO most one ton LDT out here work for a living. Ford and Ram know this.
They also know these trucks have been operating legally/safely in the 30k-35k GCW range with non of the silly accidents waiting to happen or civil lawsuits theories we see on RV websites simply don't happen in the trucking world.

Overloaded ?? Whos' definition. Trucks out here/ DOT don't use the truck makers GVWR for how much load a truck can legally/safely carry. Ford and Ram truck makers know this.

The truck maker determines their trucks GVWR and the GAWR. The truck maker may choose any GVWR number they wish up to and including the sum of their trucks GAWR's.

I think our LDT makers are finally catching up with the real world of trucking regulations with real world numbers along with much improved truck chassis/drive train performance.
__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 Cummins HO 3.73 NV5600 Jacobs
'98 3500 DRW 454 4x4 4.10 crew cab
'97 Park Avanue RK 28' 2 slides
JIMNLIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 10:09 PM   #11
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight View Post
I'm waiting for one thing that has flown over the nay sayers heads.

They're overloaded according to whom?
According to the Professional Engineers (PEs) that determined the GVWR of the vehicles, and then put in the Owner's Guides and towing manuals that you should NEVER exceed any of the manufacturers' weight ratings, including GCWR, GVWR, front and rear GAWRs, hitch rating and others.

Yes, there are lots of folks that ignore the GVWR and then poo-poo those who point out that it is a legitimate weight limit. Ask any engineer with a PE in chassis design.
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 10:26 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
sknight's Avatar
 
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 908
That info I posted about weights is straight off the Ram website? No, it's not advisable to exceed the ratings, one or all. That's a given.

But if you have a 30,000lb trailer, with a 4,000lb hitch weight, and it all comes in under 37,600 ready to roll down the road with you in the seat, what engineer says it's overloaded?

Can you link to an article?
__________________
2001 HO Cummins powered Dodge 2500
2014 Sierra 346RETS
Nights camped in 2014-28
sknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 11:35 PM   #13
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight View Post
That info I posted about weights is straight off the Ram website? No, it's not advisable to exceed the ratings, one or all. That's a given.

But if you have a 30,000lb trailer, with a 4,000lb hitch weight, and it all comes in under 37,600 ready to roll down the road with you in the seat, what engineer says it's overloaded?

Can you link to an article?
You don't need an article. You need to understand the concept of GVWR. Your Owner's guide says you should never exceed the GVWR of your tow vehicle. Put your 37,600 pound wet and loaded rig on a CAT scale and get axle weights. Then add the weights on the front and rear axles of the tow vehicle to get gross vehicle weight (GVW). If the GVW exceeds the GVWR of the tow vehicle, then you're overloaded.
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 11:45 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
sknight's Avatar
 
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
You don't need an article. You need to understand the concept of GVWR. Your Owner's guide says you should never exceed the GVWR of your tow vehicle. Put your 37,600 pound wet and loaded rig on a CAT scale and get axle weights. Then add the weights on the front and rear axles of the tow vehicle to get gross vehicle weight (GVW). If the GVW exceeds the GVWR of the tow vehicle, then you're overloaded.
Are you actually reading what I wrote? You're not. Not at all.

I understand weights and loading very well thank you, I know within ten pounds what my rig weighs ready to go on the road, 19,200 with me in it, full of fuel. Oh, that's 800 pounds under my GCWR.

If you stick to the numbers and don't exceed the tow rating, the GCWR, the GVWR, you're not overloaded.

Unfortunately I have neither the 2015 Ram nor a 30,000lb trailer to load it with, so you'll have to take my word.

As I already said. Be careful, know the weights, don't exceed any of the ratings.

But I'm afraid you simply can't prove me wrong here. Don't exceed ratings, you can tow 37,600 grand total down the road. That's taking a 7,600 pound truck (With assumed driver weight and tank of fuel.) add that 30,000 pound trailer, if the hitch weight doesn't exceed the payload driving the GVWR over, you're golden. This is all fictitious, the hitch weight could be 3,000-4,000lbs, but that's under the payload.

So, 7,640lb truck, 4,000lb hitch weight, now effective 26,000lb trailer weight. Add that up, 7640+4000+26000=37,640. The numbers do add up on our fictitious rig. A real one will be completely different, but for discussions sake, there they are.

Have a great day, until then I'm exiting the conversation, I refuse to continue conversing at this level.
__________________

__________________
2001 HO Cummins powered Dodge 2500
2014 Sierra 346RETS
Nights camped in 2014-28
sknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
tow



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Demco Tow Bars wil01 Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 1 07-26-2014 06:45 PM
Tow Bar Failures - looking for better system Nowayout Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 62 07-24-2014 09:52 PM
Tow dolly registration in VIRGINIA Elexwiz Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 4 05-08-2014 09:10 AM
Please Welcome Our New Sponsor - Acme Tow Dolly DriVer RV Industry Press 11 07-24-2013 10:29 AM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.