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Old 05-25-2014, 11:15 AM   #15
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... are looking to get the truck and fifth wheel Toy Hauler (35-38' tandem axle) ...I am looking at the F350 SD SuperCab & CrewCab with 6.2 gas rather than paying the additional 8k for the diesel only to have to pay more for joy-juice and fuel.
You'll be disappointed with the 6.2L gasser trying to drag a 16k trailer.

Ford's specs for GCWR are pretty good indicator of what you can expect. GCWR for the 6.2L engine in a 2013 F-350 DRW with 4.3 axle ratio is 22,500 pounds, and the extremely optimistic tow rating is 15,000 pounds. Using real-world truck weights, the actual tow rating of that truck is closer to 13,000 pounds. You want to stay another coupla thousand pounds below the GCWR if you want to be satisfied with your tow vehicle. A wet and loaded 38' toy hauler is going to gross closer to 16k or more, so that truck is not enough truck for your needs.

Pay extra for the diesel engine with 3.73 gears and the GCWR goes up to 30,500 with an optimistic tow rating of 22,200 pounds. That's a real-world max tow rating of about 20,000 pounds max trailer weight, and to be happy with a bit of wiggle room, you'll probably want to limit max trailer weight to around 18k. So that should handle your toy hauler with a little bit of wiggle room.

The 2014 MSRP for the diesel engine is $8,315, but you're going to give the dealer all his profit in the base price, so you'll pay invoice price of $7,088 for the diesel option. $7,000 sounds a lot better than $8,000, right?

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From what I'm reading so far on the internet, most guys think the 6.2 is pretty capable with the new 6 speed automatic trannies.
Capable, yes, for towing a trailer that grosses up to around 12k. But it's a dog with a heavier trailer. In fact, I would limit trailer weight to around 10,000 pounds with the 6.2L engine and 4.30 axle in a dually.
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:23 PM   #16
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The SD Fords are so heavy that the engine gets loaded with no trailer.
I got the same gas mileage towing a 5600 lbs trailer with a 2.9l Ranger with no power. The SD pulls a 15000 lbs trailer with same fuel mileage with lots power to spare. The cost to operate the 2 trucks is 9 quarts of oil per oil change. The Ranger was at 5000 miles with expensive synthetic while the SD is at 8000 miles with regular diesel oil.
Changed to diesels 22 years ago and never considered anything else since. Had a diesel car that paid for first RV in gas savings alone.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:30 AM   #17
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We upgraded from a 1999 V10 F350 CC 4X4 XLT 5 speed manual transmission to a 2013 6.7 F350 CC 4 X 4 DRW with the 14K GVWR package. No regrets.

The '99 had a +25 HP chip, cat-back exhaust, and a cold air intake plus an Arrowcraft DRW conversion. Very fun to drive empty and great capability. Bought it used in 2007 and put over 70K miles on it. Over 15K miles with an older Lance pickup camper on it, some times towing a 3000 lb. utility trailer. It seemed extreme (and loud) to be WOT at 4900 RPM in 3rd gear trying to climb a moderate grade. Any head wind at all meant slow going. 6-7 MPG. We were right at the GVWR of the truck (9900) and under the combined. I was considering upgrading (engine swap) to the newer 30 valve V10 with a supercharger until I test drove the 2013 6.7. 800 ft. lb. of torque quickly ended my thinking on upgrading my V10.

We wanted something newer and nicer that the 1986 Lance so we found a 6 year old Arctic Fox. This required a much more capable truck. We liked the 2013 F350 diesel and got a great price (significantly less than the 60K number we hear a lot) from the fleet manager. With the camper on and the utility trailer at 3000 lb. or so, we just completed our annual migration from AZ to WA the long way (over 1800 miles). 10.3 MPG and no problem running speed limits with strong winds. Right at the 14K GVWR and below the combined. MUCH quieter, no white knuckles climbing grades, and an automatic. Plus creature comforts. I don't miss the stick shift that much...

After 21,000 miles on the 2013 in just under a year, the only complaint I have is that it takes 2 people to remove the tailgate to load up the camper AND the tailgate with the step makes carrying stuff less convenient. I also had to add custom overload springs to make the truck ride level at GVWR.

I get CJ4 oil at Wally World and order the oil filters in bulk online from Rock Auto. An oil change costs me under 46$ every 7500 miles. My gas truck was about $18 every 4000 miles. Changing the fuel filters is easy and filters are inexpensive (from Rock Auto again).

DEF is a non-issue - Less than 1/2 penny per mile if bought at the pump, less for us since we make it ourselves. (spent way more on coffee on the last trip).

I could fix most problems with the gas truck myself and I do worry a little bit about not being able to do the same on the diesel.

The diesel truck was more expensive to buy and costs a bit more for maintenance. Absolutely. But to us, it is worth every cent and the operating costs are tolerable.

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Old 05-26-2014, 09:03 AM   #18
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DEF is a non-issue - Less than 1/2 penny per mile if bought at the pump, less for us since we make it ourselves.
I noticed you are a sponsor, so I clicked on the link to your website. Interesting new business. But you need to spend a tiny bit more time on maintaining your website. It still includes an blurb for:

Meet Five Star DEF at the 2013 Integer DEF Forum:


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Old 05-27-2014, 06:00 PM   #19
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I get CJ4 oil at Wally World and order the oil filters in bulk online from Rock Auto. An oil change costs me under 46$ every 7500 miles. My gas truck was about $18 every 4000 miles. Changing the fuel filters is easy and filters are inexpensive (from Rock Auto again).


Erich
Not sure what oil you are using but it appears you use your truck for heavy work. I suspect your oil choice may not be Ford recommended oil for heavy use. Per the owners guide " 1For severe duty usage, use SAE 5W-40 API CJ-4.

Medium duty truck engines are also going this way.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:27 PM   #20
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Here's the 2015 Ford towing guide;

http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/...Tgde_Apr17.pdf
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:57 PM   #21
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New guy here...

The missus and I are a few years out from retirement yet, but are looking to get the truck and fifth wheel Toy Hauler (35-38' tandem axle) while still showing a positive cash-flow..

I am looking at the F350 SD SuperCab & CrewCab with 6.2 gas rather than paying the additional 8k for the diesel only to have to pay more for joy-juice and fuel..
From what I'm reading so far on the internet, most guys think the 6.2 is pretty capable with the new 6 speed automatic trannies.

The deals for the 2014's are pretty good right now and I am wondering if there is really any difference between the 2014 & 2015.

My old truck (99 SD V10) is getting on a bit with 177k on it. While it still looks great and runs better, I don't know if I can trust it to be trouble-free much longer..

Also curious if anyone has any real heavy towing experience with the new 6.2 gas engine?

Thanks folks...
I've had two gas 8.1 engines. One in a GMC 2500 pickup that I pulled a travel trailer with and the other in my 36 foot Class A.

They did the job nicely but I STRONGLY suggest you buy the diesel.
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:03 PM   #22
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jamesrxx951

As always, I appreciate your expertise on powertrains and other subjects.

I buy Delo400LE with API CJ-4/SM marking in 15W-40. WW price is usually under 11.50$/gallon so $37.40 for 13 quarts. This appeared to be consistent with the diesel supplement.

The Champ LFP 2051 is occasionally available for under $8.50 on Rock Auto and Champ claims meeting OEM requirements. I was buying a lot of other stuff for my 1965 Scout, so shipping was inexpensive.

Hence $46 for an oil change.

My interpretation of the diesel supplement was that 15W-40 was recommended for the temperature range we live in which is above 28F or so year round (winters in AZ, summers in WA).

I missed the fine print on severe duty "trumping" temperature for viscosity recommendation, and totally missed the full synthetic implication. I presume the big issue is better compatibility with EGR and after treatment (less ash, better heat resistance) in addition to better lubrication at startup.

After reading it again, it appears that the full synthetic 5W-40 would be a better choice for us when making our seasonal migration. I do an oil change a few days before hauling the camper and trailer for long distances (twice so far). Our first and longest trip with the camper was as the truck was delivered from Ford.

The good news is that Delo 400 5W-40 Full Synthetic is under 20/gallon now at WW.

Appreciate the heads up on using the full synthetic. Thanks!

Erich
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:12 PM   #23
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jamesrxx951

As always, I appreciate your expertise on powertrains and other subjects.

I buy Delo400LE with API CJ-4/SM marking in 15W-40. WW price is usually under 11.50$/gallon so $37.40 for 13 quarts. This appeared to be consistent with the diesel supplement.

The Champ LFP 2051 is occasionally available for under $8.50 on Rock Auto and Champ claims meeting OEM requirements. I was buying a lot of other stuff for my 1965 Scout, so shipping was inexpensive.

Hence $46 for an oil change.

My interpretation of the diesel supplement was that 15W-40 was recommended for the temperature range we live in which is above 28F or so year round (winters in AZ, summers in WA).

I missed the fine print on severe duty "trumping" temperature for viscosity recommendation, and totally missed the full synthetic implication. I presume the big issue is better compatibility with EGR and after treatment (less ash, better heat resistance) in addition to better lubrication at startup.

After reading it again, it appears that the full synthetic 5W-40 would be a better choice for us when making our seasonal migration. I do an oil change a few days before hauling the camper and trailer for long distances (twice so far). Our first and longest trip with the camper was as the truck was delivered from Ford.

The good news is that Delo 400 5W-40 Full Synthetic is under 20/gallon now at WW.

Appreciate the heads up on using the full synthetic. Thanks!

Erich
the Delo is some really good diesel oil. From my understanding it has some very good lubricating properties. In fact I plan on trying some in a small sample of ambulances I manage over. They are showing high signs of aluminum and iron in the oil reports so after talking to an ex oil analysis guy, I plan on trying Mobil Delvac and Delo. He stated these are some really good oils. Some of the best for diesel use. My guess is the reason Ford recommends the full syn oil is to help with the high loads the turbo see's. Being a high output small turbo, it likely works a little harder than previous turbos. That is just my speculation though. I know of several people and friends that have 6.7L and use them for heavy use. In fact my friend has a F550 that weighs 19K from the day he picked it up from the dealer. They all use 5-40 oil and never an engine issue. These are trucks with over 100K also. Since the 19K box truck was the first built chassis cabs I did tell him to buy and extended warranty because of the early build valve issues. I would hate for him to have an issue outside of warranty and it is sole lively hood.

I was also talking to my A/C delco region rep and we talked about oil filters. He stated just because the filter says "meets OEM specs" does not mean it meets all of them. Most of them will just meet one or two specs and that is it. Just so they can print it on the label. I get a good deal from Autozone and I buy the Motorcraft oil filters for our 6.7Ls for $15.00.

What concerns me also (just my thoughts and a few others) is some oil filters claim to have a higher filtering capacity that factory. And loosely based on internet findings they do. However the issue for me is that the filter is the same size with similar sq/in of filtering media. So if the filter is filtering more, it will clog up faster. When this occurs the filter goes in by pass. Now no filtering. Just random thoughts that go through my skull.......
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:22 PM   #24
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Thanks for posting that link!! I'd been looking for the official word from Ford and there it is!

So it looks like the 6.2 is at the end of it's towing capability at 15.7k for the SuperCab with the 4:30 rear axle..
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:11 AM   #25
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So it looks like the 6.2 is at the end of it's towing capability at 15.7k for the SuperCab with the 4:30 rear axle...
Learn how to read a manufacturer's towing guide. Not just Ford's, but GM and Ram too. They all publish unrealistic tow ratings.

The 22,000 GCWR is accurate. Don't exceed it.

But notice that the tow rating of 15,700 for an F-250 SuperCab 4x2 with 6.2L engine and 4.30 axle ratio is only 6,300 pounds less than the GCWR. That means that you can tow a 15.7k trailer with a wet and loaded F-250 SuperCab 4x2 with 6.2L engine and 4.30 axle ratio ONLY when the wet and loaded F-250 (including 5er hitch, full of fuel, and driver) grosses less than 6,300 pounds before you tie onto the 5er.

Then notice the GOTCHA! The fine print says
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Addition of trailer king pin load weight and passengers and cargo must not cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR.
For an F-250, the GCWR (and thus the tow rating) is not the limiter as to how much trailer you can tow without being overloaded. The GVWR is your limiter.

An F-350 SRW might be able to haul the pin weight of a 15k 5er without exceeding the GVWR of the tow vehicle, but it ain't gonna happen with an F-250. Way back when, my F-250 had a tow rating of over 13k, but I was overloaded with my 5er that grossed 8k. So much for the Ford tow rating.

To get a more realistic tow rating for any tow vehicle with single rear wheels (SRW), subtract the weight of a wet and loaded truck from the GVWR of that truck and then divide the answer by 0.17. So for a 2014 F-250 CrewCab 4x4 with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds and a wet and loaded weight of 8,000 pounds, that leaves 2,000 pounds for max pin weight. 2000 divided by 0.17 = 11,764 max GVWR of any 5er you want to try to tow if you don't want to be overloaded.

Dividing the unused payload capacity by 0.17 is for a medium-sized or small 5er with pin weight of 17%, which is about average for that size 5er. But the percent varies from around 16 to 20, so if you want to be sure to not be overloaded in the middle of your third camping trip, then use 0.20 instead of 0.17.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:24 AM   #26
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Toyota Tundra Leads Crowded Field—by a Nose - WSJ.com

From an article in the Wall Street Journal in the Cars Section:

Toyota Tundra Leads Crowded Field—by a Nose

Friday, December 6, 2013 by Dan Neil

================================================== ====================
(excerpt)

It has to do with truck towing capacity and how manufacturers derive such numbers. Apparently, they make them up, according to some internal regime that they are happy to discuss under subpoena.

In 2011, Toyota alone adopted the Society of Automotive Engineers' SAE J2807 towing standard; which is to say, it uses an independently verifiable, repeatable series of tests to derive its towing capacity.

Among other things, the standard requires laden trucks to be able to climb Colorado's Davis Dam grade, an 11-mile slog that rises 3,000 feet in elevation, at speeds above 40 mph and with the air conditioning going full blast.

I wish I could say, with authority, that Toyota's move was groundbreaking. For all anyone knows outside the few validation engineers at the OEMs, the auto makers' internal standards might be even more strenuous.

I do find it curious, however, that the baseline Tundra 4x2 regular cab with the tow package is rated at 10,400 pounds using the SAE standard, while Chevy claims the Silverado—which is, as I say, mechanically and dimensionally within fractions of the Toyota—is rated at 12,000 pounds towing capacity.

That is a difference of 1,600 pounds, or 15%. The disparity suggests it is an artifact of the testing method, and not vehicle merit.

Toyota has been on a campaign in the past three years to rebuild trust after a series of embarrassing recalls; it is tempting to take the SAE standard as a thread in that tapestry.

In any event, towing capacity is the marquee number in the half-ton truck segment and having automakers gin up those numbers on their own only invites mischief.

Thanks to the Tundra, there is at least one number in the pickup market that you can hang your cowboy hat on.
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:55 AM   #27
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Altho I would not look for the Davis Dam in Colorado...
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:21 PM   #28
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Ike's Gauntlet is in Colorado, but not Davis Dam.
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