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Old 09-25-2013, 03:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by powderman View Post
Well one advantage is you won't have to scream to have the wife hear you asit will be turning 2k rpm instead of 5k or 6.

Ain't that the truth. Nothing less exciting than running a maxed out gasser up and down mtn passes.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:00 PM   #30
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I don't see you mentioning anywhere the cost of DEF and any maintenance that might be required to the DPF/ sludge cleanup of the EGR and its associated issues.

The DPF regeneration "costs" the vehicle a lot in terms of MPG. So much so that the economy improvement alone isnt a reason to switch.

As a guy that owns a 2013 3500 sprinter and a diesel RV I can tell you these costs are not imagined. It does NOT meet the mileage label.

Moderns diesels have a lot more sensors and issues than the units of old, and when netting out the WHOLE cost for a smaller vehicle Diesel is no longer the head and shoulders winner it used to be.

Uncle Dave
Uncle Dave,
I was using actual data from my wife's 2011 VW Jetta TDI. Her fuel mileage is between 31 lowest and 35 highest MPG in town and on the highway lowest is 40 and the highest has been 45 MPG's. The car is rarely driven on the highway and is used mainly as a grocery getter. Her car does not use urea since it can meet the emission without the use of DEF.

Now I could quote you my 08 Ram but that would not be fair since it has been upgraded slightly. It will get over 20 MPG on the highway when not towing. When towing the 5er the truck will get between 10 and 12 MPG’s so I am happy with this.

Now as far as the usage of DEF this cost can be rolled into the fuel cost as far as I am concerned and then the mileage cost can be calculated on the total since both are used to provide improve fuel economy. I personally do not own a 2013 and newer truck but I am a member of Turbo Diesel Register and several members have purchased and towed with the new RAM HO 6.7L Cummins that uses DEF. They all have reported improve fuel mileage when towing with the new 2013 over the older 6.7L trucks anywhere from 1 to 3 MPG when towing and a much larger improvement when not towing. These trucks for the most part are still under 30K miles since the 2013.5 Ram was introduced in Jan and we all know that a diesel engine will have improve mileage as the engine breaks in. The cost of DEF is around $2.79 a gallon and most users are reporting around 800 miles to 1000 miles per gallon of DEF usage.

I cannot speak for Ford or GMC but the Ram trucks have eliminated the NOx Filter since there is less EGR taking place on the new 2013.5 Cummins engine. Less EGR means less soot in the engine which is a good thing.

I consider the DPF like the catalytic converter on a gas engine; these are both maintenance items that will need to be replace as they wear out. That is why I did not mention any cost associated with them.

Jim W.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:06 PM   #31
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I'm not sure I would want a diesel in a 1/2 ton pickup. They don't have the weight ratings to pull a heavy trailer, and diesel is way more expensive than gas for normal homeowner running around. Seems like they are looking to inject some unnecessary testosterone into 1/2 ton product line.
These puick-ups in question are the Colorado / Canyon and the weight will be 4300 lbs full of fuel but they will also come with a v-6 gas engine. IZZU
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:35 PM   #32
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Uncle Dave,
I was using actual data from my wife's 2011 VW Jetta TDI. Her fuel mileage is between 31 lowest and 35 highest MPG in town and on the highway lowest is 40 and the highest has been 45 MPG's. The car is rarely driven on the highway and is used mainly as a grocery getter. Her car does not use urea since it can meet the emission without the use of DEF.

Now I could quote you my 08 Ram but that would not be fair since it has been upgraded slightly. It will get over 20 MPG on the highway when not towing. When towing the 5er the truck will get between 10 and 12 MPG’s so I am happy with this.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] Now as far as the usage of DEF this cost can be rolled into the fuel cost as far as I am concerned and then the mileage cost can be calculated on the total since both are used to provide improve fuel economy. I personally do not own a 2013 and newer truck but I am a member of Turbo Diesel Register and several members have purchased and towed with the new RAM HO 6.7L Cummins that uses DEF. They all have reported improve fuel mileage when towing with the new 2013 over the older 6.7L trucks anywhere from 1 to 3 MPG when towing and a much larger improvement when not towing. These trucks for the most part are still under 30K miles since the 2013.5 Ram was introduced in Jan and we all know that a diesel engine will have improve mileage as the engine breaks in. The cost of DEF is around $2.79 a gallon and most users are reporting around 800 miles to 1000 miles per gallon of DEF usage.
The tiny commuter cars may be able to avoid a urea setup, but the trucks will need urea and DPF's.

Perhaps when comparing a newly designed engine to a pre DPF there is a mileage gain, but most have seen a decrease since DPF's have been around.

Sprinters lost several MPG when moving to the DPF equipped units. (you are burning fuel that doesn't make the vehicle move)

Urea is 2.79 at a truckstop- markedly higher at a dealership.
I've found little rhyme or reason to its consumption in my application.

The newest direct injection, turbo, 6 speed, DOHC VVT, active fuel management 6's and 8's get really good mileage compared to units just a few years older.

The sprinter forum guys did a complete analysis of a mid sized van one with an ecoboost v6 and one with a 3.0 litre diesel and the numbers weren't the big gap
we all thought we'd see. Here is an abridged version.

Diesel

10,000 miles/20.3 mpg = 493 gallons @ 4.14/gallon = $2039.00
13 quarts of oil @ $8.00/gt = $104.00
Fuel filter = $54.00
Oil filter = $16.00
10 gallons of DEF x $6.00/gallon = $60.00
Sprinter total cost for 10,000 miles = $2273.00

Gas (MPG 28% lower than diesel engine)

10,000 miles/15 mpg = 667 gallons @ 3.86/gallon = $2575.00
6 quarts of oil @ $6.00/qt = $36.00
Oil filter = $8.00
Ford Gas total cost for 10,000 miles = $2619.00

Add in the 3-5 K for the diesel option to begin with and the benefits get murky

Long term durability, heavy towing, Rv's -are still in the diesels favor- its getting to be a closer race in the medium duty apps though.

UD
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:02 PM   #33
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One really can't consider the additional cost of the diesel option when new without also considering the higher resale value of the diesel. Here in the Houston area, the cost of the Cummins option in the heavy duty Rams is just about recovered at the time of trade-in or resale.

Having towed heavy 5th wheels with both large gas engines and diesels, there's no comparison in the towing performance. I would hate to go back to towing with gassers.

Rusty
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:06 PM   #34
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Looks like diesel power is gaining popularity and market in the U.S.A. 2014 model BMW offers a diesel engine option that claims 45 MPG.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:32 PM   #35
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.......
Having towed heavy 5th wheels with both large gas engines and diesels, there's no comparison in the towing performance. I would hate to go back to towing with gassers.
Rusty
I can under stand your feeling on the larger (3/4 and 1 ton) trucks.
The gas engines in those generly have half the torque and 20-30% less HP than the modern diesels.
I do NOT see GM doing 1/2 ton diesel trucks in a way where it could really work well for those of us who would use all of that power that their great (small ish) diesel have.
There has been so much development work to make the gas engines in the 1/2 tons get into the 20s in spite of the segment getting FAT and over weight in the last 20 years, that they won't get thier money back if they make the deisels work too well.
From the HP and TQ numbers that the OP posted there is no way a diesel will out pull the Ecoboost Ford V6. THes diesel numbers he posted had the same torque and well over 100HP short of Fords V6. Altitude won't make one bit of difference since both would wastgated turbos.
Yes diesel fuel has more BTUs per gallon than gas has,that wll be the difference.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:44 PM   #36
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Unless mpg is outstanding, I don't get the purpose of diesel in half ton. Plenty of powerful gas engines already available and diesel costs about .50 per gal more. The problem with half ton isn't power, its cargo (pin weight) capacity. But to each his own.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:48 PM   #37
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Lets compare like engines.

When guys say they have driven "large gas engines" and they don't pull like diesels, of course NA gas engines wont pull like turbo-diesels.

Modern turbo'd big blocks are wicked beasts, a modern turbocharged big or small block is every bit as potent as a diesel of the same general displacement.

As was stated in a prior thread - the 3.5 ecoboost trounces the 3 litre motari in the dodge (or the 3.0 litre in my sprinter) EB walks away from it like it was chained to a house.

What they are historically missing is the diesels longevity. That gap is closing as well.

I LOVE my diesels, but the latest gassers have closed the gap substantially.



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Old 09-26-2013, 06:56 AM   #38
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Lets compare like engines.

When guys say they have driven "large gas engines" and they don't pull like diesels, of course NA gas engines wont pull like turbo-diesels.

Modern turbo'd big blocks are wicked beasts, a modern turbocharged big or small block is every bit as potent as a diesel of the same general displacement.

As was stated in a prior thread - the 3.5 ecoboost trounces the 3 litre motari in the dodge (or the 3.0 litre in my sprinter) EB walks away from it like it was chained to a house.

What they are historically missing is the diesels longevity. That gap is closing as well.

I LOVE my diesels, but the latest gassers have closed the gap substantially.



UD
Have you seen or know someone with an EcoBoost Transit Van? I did not think they are going to be released till early this next year or maybe late this year with the 14s.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:24 AM   #39
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As was stated in a prior thread - the 3.5 ecoboost trounces the 3 litre motari in the dodge (or the 3.0 litre in my sprinter) EB walks away from it like it was chained to a house.
The gas 3.5L ecoboost has superior BHP and similar torque when compared to the 3.0L turbodiesel. Since BHP is a product of torque x RPM (divided by 5252, in US units of measure), the gas engine's ability to rev higher due to lighter weight components, time requirements for diesel combustion, etc. translate to higher BHPs. Diesels generally will produce their torque at a lower RPM than comparable gas engines, however.

Let's wait to see some real world results for towing performance and towing fuel mileage for comparable trucks towing comparable trailers. Ram's marketing strategy for the 3.0L turbodiesel is really pretty simple - to offer trailer tow ratings very close to the 5.7L Hemi while offering equal or better EPA fuel economy than the 25 MPG highway rating of the 3.6L Pentastar V6.

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Old 09-26-2013, 09:00 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Uncle Dave View Post
Lets compare like engines.

When guys say they have driven "large gas engines" and they don't pull like diesels, of course NA gas engines wont pull like turbo-diesels.

Modern turbo'd big blocks are wicked beasts, a modern turbocharged big or small block is every bit as potent as a diesel of the same general displacement.

As was stated in a prior thread - the 3.5 ecoboost trounces the 3 litre motari in the dodge (or the 3.0 litre in my sprinter) EB walks away from it like it was chained to a house.

What they are historically missing is the diesels longevity. That gap is closing as well.

I LOVE my diesels, but the latest gassers have closed the gap substantially.



UD
Uncle Dave;
I know this is old data and I am not using a new modern 2013 engine for comparison. But I am using a 2001 ¾ ton Chevy pick-up with the 6.0L gas motor, auto, 4X4, 3:73 and stock size 17” tires to compare against a 2008 6.7L Cummins auto,4X4,3:73 and stock size 17” tires pulling the same 5er.

I had both trucks and used the gasser twice in pulling a 270RKS America Camp Summit Ridge and the Ram for the remaining time that I own the Summit Ridge. The gasser fuel mileage was only 6 to 7 MPG’s at best and the stock 6.7L Cummins was between 9.43 to 10.71 MPG’s when towing with only 8,000 miles on the engine.

Now as far as your analysis of the cost of ownership of a diesel, this seems high to me based on my numbers and experience.

I can quote from day one; Nov.07 when I bought my 08 Ram with the 6.7L Cummins engine with 29 miles on the OD.

Mileage is 67,398 on the OD now; my last fill-up was at 67,126 miles. Now these are my numbers for my 08 diesel pick-up truck.

Miles driven 67,126/ fuel used 5,091 gallons =13.19 MPG (average towing, city driving and highway)
Cost is $17,691. (Fuel)/ 5.091 gallons =$3.47 a gallon (this is an average price; the range is from a high of $4.74 to a low of $1.90 per gallon)
Oil changes on my truck require 3 gallons which are around $12.99 each, filter cost is $15.36 changed every 7,500 miles. I have had 8 oil changes so far and another one will be done shortly. So this would be $54.33X8=$434.64
Fuel Filter is $50 changed every 15,000 miles I have used 4 fuel filters and I am do for another when I change the oil. Fuel filter cost is $200.
Now if I was to use DEF I would be paying around $5.60 a gallon at the local NAPA store; 2.5 gallon containers or buy in bulk at the local Loves station which is cheaper. I would never ever buy from a car dealer unless I had to.
So to me the diesel is still the low cost option. Discounting the DEF usage since I do not need this; my cost of ownership per mile is $0.27 which is a penny more than the cost of the Ford gas truck.
Jim W.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:59 AM   #41
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Uncle Dave;
I know this is old data and I am not using a new modern 2013 engine for comparison. But I am using a 2001 ¾ ton Chevy pick-up with the 6.0L gas motor, auto, 4X4, 3:73 and stock size 17” tires to compare against a 2008 6.7L Cummins auto,4X4,3:73 and stock size 17” tires pulling the same 5er.

I had both trucks and used the gasser twice in pulling a 270RKS America Camp Summit Ridge and the Ram for the remaining time that I own the Summit Ridge. The gasser fuel mileage was only 6 to 7 MPG’s at best and the stock 6.7L Cummins was between 9.43 to 10.71 MPG’s when towing with only 8,000 miles on the engine.

Now as far as your analysis of the cost of ownership of a diesel, this seems high to me based on my numbers and experience.

I can quote from day one; Nov.07 when I bought my 08 Ram with the 6.7L Cummins engine with 29 miles on the OD.

Mileage is 67,398 on the OD now; my last fill-up was at 67,126 miles. Now these are my numbers for my 08 diesel pick-up truck.

Miles driven 67,126/ fuel used 5,091 gallons =13.19 MPG (average towing, city driving and highway)
Cost is $17,691. (Fuel)/ 5.091 gallons =$3.47 a gallon (this is an average price; the range is from a high of $4.74 to a low of $1.90 per gallon)
Oil changes on my truck require 3 gallons which are around $12.99 each, filter cost is $15.36 changed every 7,500 miles. I have had 8 oil changes so far and another one will be done shortly. So this would be $54.33X8=$434.64
Fuel Filter is $50 changed every 15,000 miles I have used 4 fuel filters and I am do for another when I change the oil. Fuel filter cost is $200.
Now if I was to use DEF I would be paying around $5.60 a gallon at the local NAPA store; 2.5 gallon containers or buy in bulk at the local Loves station which is cheaper. I would never ever buy from a car dealer unless I had to.
So to me the diesel is still the low cost option. Discounting the DEF usage since I do not need this; my cost of ownership per mile is $0.27 which is a penny more than the cost of the Ford gas truck.
Jim W.
The "modernization is the key to the diesels shrinking performance gap against the modern gasser.

08's are missing 2 key tech pieces the new units deal with- they didn't have DPF's. (diesel particulate filter) OR Urea injectors.

All the new Trucks at 3.0L and up have DPF's and must regen periodically.

Your calks are missing the mileage penalty the DPF regeneration imposes on the diesel rigs. The harder you drive and tow them the more time they spend in regen mode.

The cost and bother of the Urea is annoying, but pales in comparison to spraying raw fuel into a DPF to vaporize the carbon during regen.

(note there is no reduction in net carbon emission - actually there is an increase- only a reduction is particulate matter.)

This is why the newer units aren't the head and shoulders above the gassers like they used to be.

I love love love my diesel products, and will probably seek out a diesel replacement for my gas 1/2 ton. Reality is that the new stuff is so much more complicated than the say the 08's they are a different beast entirely.

UD
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:02 AM   #42
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Have you seen or know someone with an EcoBoost Transit Van? I did not think they are going to be released till early this next year or maybe late this year with the 14s.
They are not out - however The "build your own" website is up and you can price out a build and see how they stack up.

Unfortunately for me I cannot "build" a dually transit which my application requires so Im "stuck" with a Mercedes.


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