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Old 09-26-2013, 12:02 PM   #57
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I can't do an armchair diagnostic from here regarding your particular situation on your Mercedes diesel, but I can only state that the Cummins-powered Ram pickups regen far more frequently around town than they do when working on the open road. Consider that when the 6.7L was introduced on January 1, 2007, there was a period of perhaps a year when there were a lot of warranty claims for VGT turbochargers with stuck nozzle rings (the Holset VGT turbos used on Cummins engines use a moveable nozzle ring in the turbine section, not moveable vanes) or plugged EGR coolers due to carbon (soot) buildup. Guess which trucks had this problem? The mall cruisers that just loafed around town or were used for stop-and-go commuting. Seldom if ever did the dealers see a hotshot rig or a truck used exclusively to tow a large RV back in the shop. It was obvious which applications produced more soot - the lightly loaded ones.

Rusty
Interesting experiences.

Ive never seen visible soot from my other diesels just cruising around town.
I see it under a heavy load.

Given we have exactly opposite experiences it will be interesting to see how these small diesels in half ton trucks work.

Will the 3.0L Pentastar work like your Cummins, or closer to what I experience with the 3.0L Sprinter?

Time will tell.

Either way with a 7-8K replacement cost for the diesel exhaust system it will be interesting to see how long the DPF's actually last what the long term ownership costs of gas vs diesel are after a decade now that the rules are what they are.

UD
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:11 PM   #58
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Dave, I can only suggest that if you are truly seeing more regens on your Sprinter under heavy load, it sounds like it's short on air or heavy on fuel in these situations. The old days where OTR trucks had black smoke billowing out the exhaust stack and even a flame standing a foot or two over the stack are long gone. Other than heat waves, we can't show ANY visible stack emissions from our diesels under full load/full speed conditions. The ratio between air and fuel flow must be carefully monitored and maintained to achieve this; I can only say that for a modern diesel in the case of your Sprinter, something sounds amiss.

I agree, though - I hope that people don't buy these things just to run to the store for a loaf of bread or to run the kids to soccer practice. That's tough duty for a modern diesel.

Rusty
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:18 PM   #59
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Dave, I can only suggest that if you are truly seeing more regens on your Sprinter under heavy load, it sounds like it's short on air or heavy on fuel in these situations. The old days where OTR trucks had black smoke billowing out the exhaust stack and even a flame standing a foot or two over the stack are long gone. Other than heat waves, we can't show ANY visible stack emissions from our diesels under full load/full speed conditions. The ratio between air and fuel flow must be carefully monitored and maintained to achieve this; I can only say that for a modern diesel in the case of your Sprinter, something sounds amiss.

I agree, though - I hope that people don't buy these things just to run to the store for a loaf of bread or to run the kids to soccer practice. That's tough duty for a modern diesel.

Rusty
An excellent and fun exchange sir Rusty.

UD
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:11 PM   #60
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The "modernization is the key to the diesels shrinking performance gap against the modern gasser.

08's are missing 2 key tech pieces the new units deal with- they didn't have DPF's. (diesel particulate filter) OR Urea injectors.

All the new Trucks at 3.0L and up have DPF's and must regen periodically.

Your calks are missing the mileage penalty the DPF regeneration imposes on the diesel rigs. The harder you drive and tow them the more time they spend in regen mode.

The cost and bother of the Urea is annoying, but pales in comparison to spraying raw fuel into a DPF to vaporize the carbon during regen.

(note there is no reduction in net carbon emission - actually there is an increase- only a reduction is particulate matter.)

This is why the newer units aren't the head and shoulders above the gassers like they used to be.

I love love love my diesel products, and will probably seek out a diesel replacement for my gas 1/2 ton. Reality is that the new stuff is so much more complicated than the say the 08's they are a different beast entirely.

UD

Uncle Dave;

When the 6.7L Cummins was introduced in Jan 07 this engine meet the 2010 Tier IV diesel emissions with the use of EGR, then a Nox filter, a Catalytic converter and the DPF. Cummins just recently change the engine emission design to meet the latest round of emissions rules and improve fuel economy with increase horsepower and torque. The way Cummins was able to do this was to lessen the amount of EGR use and to eliminate the Nox filter; but they retained the Catalytic converter and the DPF with the SCR strategy (UREA). I just thought you would like to know the Ram pick-up trucks do use a DPF.

Jim W.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:31 PM   #61
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Uncle Dave;

When the 6.7L Cummins was introduced in Jan 07 this engine meet the 2010 Tier IV diesel emissions with the use of EGR, then a Nox filter, a Catalytic converter and the DPF. Cummins just recently change the engine emission design to meet the latest round of emissions rules and improve fuel economy with increase horsepower and torque. The way Cummins was able to do this was to lessen the amount of EGR use and to eliminate the Nox filter; but they retained the Catalytic converter and the DPF with the SCR strategy (UREA). I just thought you would like to know the Ram pick-up trucks do use a DPF.

Jim W.
Good to know they started in 07 with the DPF and . Thanks

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Old 09-27-2013, 08:22 AM   #62
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Interesting reading here. But I had to laugh when some of you diesel drivers complained about the noise of a gas engine. That's hilarious.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:20 AM   #63
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Lets compare like engines.

When guys say they have driven "large gas engines" and they don't pull like diesels, of course NA gas engines wont pull like turbo-diesels.

Modern turbo'd big blocks are wicked beasts, a modern turbocharged big or small block is every bit as potent as a diesel of the same general displacement.

As was stated in a prior thread - the 3.5 ecoboost trounces the 3 litre motari in the dodge (or the 3.0 litre in my sprinter) EB walks away from it like it was chained to a house.

What they are historically missing is the diesels longevity. That gap is closing as well.

I LOVE my diesels, but the latest gassers have closed the gap substantially.



UD
I don't think anyone doubts the towing abilities of the ecoboost, for towing having low RPM torque is everything when it comes to holding gears up grades and that makes for the best towing experience. The ecoboost delivers this with twin turbos down to nearly diesel like levels, i believe full torque at 2250rpm. Then goes on to rev higher and make much more horsepower, meaning acceleration is also much improved over a diesel.

Diesel still has the ecoboost beat in fuel mileage, and still delivers full torque usually by 1600-1800 rpm on modern diesels of this engine displacement. While it won't accelerate as well, it'll destroy the ecoboost in fuel economy, with and without a trailer.





On another topic, i don't think it was mentioned here. Nissan has teamed up with Cummins and will be offering a 5.0L V8 diesel in the 2015 titan which will go on sale next year. It'll debut at an auto show in the spring of 2014. It's supposed to make over 300hp and over 550ft-lbs of torque, essentially beating out the ford 7.3L diesel 10 years ago, while getting around 23-24mpg per dodges simulations when they were working on this project with cummins.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:24 AM   #64
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Interesting reading here. But I had to laugh when some of you diesel drivers complained about the noise of a gas engine. That's hilarious.
First, a diesel pulling a 6% grade at 2000 RPM is generally quieter than a gas engine screaming away at 4500 RPM to pull the same grade. Second, if you haven't ridden in a recent diesel-powered truck that utilizes multiple injection event HPCR injection, you'll be in for a big surprise. The interior of our 2011 4th generation Ram with the HPCR 6.7L Cummins is extremely quiet - much more so than our previous 2002 2nd generation Ram with the VP44-injected 5.9L Cummins HO.

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:14 AM   #65
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I don't think anyone doubts the towing abilities of the ecoboost, for towing having low RPM torque is everything when it comes to holding gears up grades and that makes for the best towing experience. The ecoboost delivers this with twin turbos down to nearly diesel like levels, i believe full torque at 2250rpm. Then goes on to rev higher and make much more horsepower, meaning acceleration is also much improved over a diesel.

Diesel still has the ecoboost beat in fuel mileage, and still delivers full torque usually by 1600-1800 rpm on modern diesels of this engine displacement. While it won't accelerate as well, it'll destroy the ecoboost in fuel economy, with and without a trailer.

On another topic, i don't think it was mentioned here. Nissan has teamed up with Cummins and will be offering a 5.0L V8 diesel in the 2015 titan which will go on sale next year. It'll debut at an auto show in the spring of 2014. It's supposed to make over 300hp and over 550ft-lbs of torque, essentially beating out the ford 7.3L diesel 10 years ago, while getting around 23-24mpg per dodges simulations when they were working on this project with cummins.
Thing is... everything in life is a tradeoff.

Yes the diesel will defeat the gasser in the mileage battle, but by how much? ..and for how many more dollars up front?

If one only ever tows a light load does it make sense?

IF you have all gasoline toys does it always make sense to throw a third fuel in?

Not always. These new 5/8 tons will change the value proposition somewhat.

I mostly agree with the guys that say the up front isn't as important because the diesel has better resale but these guys must have never owned a Ford 6.0 series engine (depreciate like a used hand grenade)

The Nissan Cummins announcement is the one that gets me excited.

Ive been holding on to a loaded 04 Titan and will gravitate towards this new combo- my worry is that the truck will not hold up to the engine.


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Old 09-27-2013, 10:20 AM   #66
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First, a diesel pulling a 6% grade at 2000 RPM is generally quieter than a gas engine screaming away at 4500 RPM to pull the same grade. Second, if you haven't ridden in a recent diesel-powered truck that utilizes multiple injection event HPCR injection, you'll be in for a big surprise. The interior of our 2011 4th generation Ram with the HPCR 6.7L Cummins is extremely quiet - much more so than our previous 2002 2nd generation Ram with the VP44-injected 5.9L Cummins HO.

Rusty
Agreed, I have not drove a new Ram 6.7L but the Ford 6.7L is very quiet. In fact the harder you push the engine the quieter it gets. There is no comparison to a gas engine with noise now. The only problem now with diesels are they don't sound like diesels anymore.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:25 AM   #67
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I mostly agree with the guys that say the up front isn't as important because the diesel has better resale but these guys must have never owned a Ford 6.0 series engine (depreciate like a used hand grenade).
Nope, I've never owned a 6.0L Ford Powerstroke diesel. The 6.0L's resale value is not indicative of or comparable to Cummins or Duramax powered diesel trucks of the same era. Of course, the same could be said for the V8-6-4 Cadillac gas engines back in the 1980s, of which many were swapped for 350 cid gas engines from other GM products. An engine that (rightly or wrongly) the marketplace perceives as a lemon is NOT going to have decent resale value, regardless of whether it's a gas or diesel engine.

Rusty
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:57 AM   #68
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The Nissan Cummins announcement is the one that gets me excited.







.


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Thing is the Titan doesn't have enough payload capacity to warrant a diesel motor. Ever notice that payload capacity drops when a diesel option is selected? Nissan needs to really beef up the Titan to make it Cummins worthy.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:05 PM   #69
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Thing is the Titan doesn't have enough payload capacity to warrant a diesel motor. Ever notice that payload capacity drops when a diesel option is selected? Nissan needs to really beef up the Titan to make it Cummins worthy.
I am (as a titan owner) quite aware of that.

In some cases it actually does warrant a diesel. A diesel can tow 7500 through the mountains and in 110 degree air far more efficiently than a gasser.

I get around 9 MPG towing 7500, and an ecoboost gets about 12-13 a diesel should get 15+.

Actually many option boxes on a 1/2 ton reduce payload - 4x4 being one of them, and 2 more doors is another. The titan is not unique in any way in this regards.

The Titan needs-

A new trans
(the jatco 5 was best in class when introduced and is now bottom of barrell)
A new rear end ( the dana 44 doesn't cut it and really never did)
New Xfer boxes and axles
New rear suspension (rancho was a joke went bilsteins )
New front suspension- see above
New Brakes (had to put new rotors and pads in on day 2)
New Interior hasnt changed in a decade. awesome features- old design

In short if they do it right - the Cummins Titan will be a brand new Titan sharing name only.

Nissan has had a decade- Im hoping they get this one right.

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Old 09-27-2013, 05:41 PM   #70
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First, a diesel pulling a 6% grade at 2000 RPM is generally quieter than a gas engine screaming away at 4500 RPM to pull the same grade. Second, if you haven't ridden in a recent diesel-powered truck that utilizes multiple injection event HPCR injection, you'll be in for a big surprise. The interior of our 2011 4th generation Ram with the HPCR 6.7L Cummins is extremely quiet - much more so than our previous 2002 2nd generation Ram with the VP44-injected 5.9L Cummins HO.

Rusty
You're right. Never driven a newer one. Just an 03 duramax. (Fatherinlaw) It rattles and vibrates at all speeds. But I have seen and heard the new diesels pulling thru the cg. Not newly as loud but still louder than the avg gasser. I just pulled 8000+ lbs with my gasser 4700 miles thru the rockies including the Beartooth scenic hwy into Montana. Yeah, dropped into 4th gear on a few climbs and revved up to 3800 ROMs, but never got loud enough to be a bother. The other 4690 miles were nice and quiet at 1800-2000 rpms.
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