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Old 05-20-2009, 07:53 PM   #1
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New Federal Mileage and Emission Rules for Pick Up

Can someone explain to me what effect the new Federal Requirements will have on the typical 3/4 and 1 ton truck? Will they still be available for RV? Will there be a premium for being fuel guzzlers? Will this end RVing as we know it today? What effect will this have on motorhomes?

I am very concerned that "life as we know it" will end in 2016. Of course, I might not be here to watch the slaughter.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:05 PM   #2
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IMHO, it's too early to tell what the final rules will be.

I am 100% sure that RVing as we know it will not end. It may change, though.

There will always be a need for larger vehicles/trucks for RV's, businesses, farmers, etc.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:15 AM   #3
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There is nothing really new about the latest announcements. We have been dealing with CAFE (Corp. Avg. Fuel Economy) standards for a long time. Ditto emissions standards. What has happened is a ratcheting up of both of those items at nearly the same time. Typically, the CAFE standards would be increased and then the pollution standards would be upped a few years later. Raising both at nearly the same time is going to be problematic. The engineers have, IMHO, pretty much reached the end of what can be done with the petroleum powered internal combustion engine. What the gov. doesn't seem to understand is the physics of the situation. Right now, the only real way to improve MPG is to make lighter/smaller vehicles with less power. People don't wnat them. I saw a tidbit the other day that the gov is abandoning hydrogen powered engines. It seems to me that electric cars only move the pollution to somewhere else. Since the administration has stated that they are opposed to building new nuclear plants, are trying to shut down coal fired plants (through various means) and there is pressure to remove dams that generate power... I assume we'll have to hand crank a generator to recharge the batteries. I designed and installed a solar heating system on my last house that worked well for over 20 years. However, the economies and efficiencies of solar electric need to leap forward by orders of magnitude before solar electric will be practical. There simply isn't enough watts hitting the surface of the earth to make the kind of power we're accustomed to. I wonder if returning to the age of no air conditioning, no electric dryer, no 55" LCD TV and so forth is part of somebody's plan. Nobody has explained what happens when the wind doesn't blow.

In any event, the economy standards are an average for the number of cars sold, and it is weighted on the particular type of vehicles sold. So, to simplify a lot, if a company can sell a lot of Prii (is that the plural for Prius?) then they can sell a few trucks. Since heavy towing trucks are not a huge part of sales, there is some wiggle room. IMHO the pollution standards are going to affect towing vehicles more than the mileage. At some point, the manufs. simply won't be allowed to build engines with enough power to do the job RVrs ask of them. Remember what happened to performance when the gov mandated particulate filters on diesels?

Of course, there is the mindset that the Europeans have high gas prices and live with smaller, lighter trailers and MHs. Recently, I went online to check out MH rentals in some European countries and New Zealand. What they called their biggest units, claimed to sleep 8 people were Class C MHs in what looked like the 22' range. If that is what we come to, I will stop RVing. I drive a crew cab truck pulling a 32' TT with slide out. Two people and two cats. 19K lbs. fully loaded. Why? Because I choose to.

Lest anyone think the manufs. are just hiding a new gadget that will allow cars to get 60 mpg, or we can make them lighter, I own a fairly recent (10 year old) motorcycle. I assume there are few cars lighter than my bike. I get between 31 and 36 MPG depending on how fast I go. Our Subaru is about 4 years old and a small car. 27MPG on the freeway, with a tailwind. I'm not sure what a family of 6 is supposed to do. I have a chip in my PSD and I get roughly the same mileage as a friend with a Tundra. I do much better when towing than he does towing and my TT weighs twice what his weighs.

However, there will ALWAYS be something to produce the horsepower. I doubt UPS trucks are going to disappear. The same goes for Semis. I don't think I will live long enough to see a battery powered over the road truck pulling 80 K for 600 miles. We may end up welding two Tundras together, but where there's a will....
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:40 AM   #4
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Personally, I don't want to speculate until I see the regulations. All of the talking heads were saying the CAFE regulations apply to cars and light trucks. Light trucks used to be those with GVWRs of 8800 lbs or less - my dually, for instance, didn't have any fuel economy ratings on the Mulroney sticker but instead had a statement that CAFE regulations were not applicable to this vehicle.

If nothing else, to skew the buyers to the smaller, lighter, higher mileage cars, we can bet that the big 'uns are gonna be significantly more expensive (as if $60K pickups aren't ridiculous enough now!)

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Old 05-22-2009, 11:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
Personally, I don't want to speculate until I see the regulations. All of the talking heads were saying the CAFE regulations apply to cars and light trucks. Light trucks used to be those with GVWRs of 8800 lbs or less - my dually, for instance, didn't have any fuel economy ratings on the Mulroney sticker but instead had a statement that CAFE regulations were not applicable to this vehicle.

If nothing else, to skew the buyers to the smaller, lighter, higher mileage cars, we can bet that the big 'uns are gonna be significantly more expensive (as if $60K pickups aren't ridiculous enough now!)

Rusty
21 MPG highway unloaded, 13 MPG towing a 8000# Jayco fiver. Considering the truck alone weighs nearly 7000#, I think that is respectable fuel economy.

It is sad that list price on my truck was the same as my first house. Of course the truck is big enough to live in, and will TOW my second home. I enjoy it, regardless of the cost. You can't take any of that cash with you, and the kids can earn their own money. DW and I are spending our children's inheritance.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:12 AM   #6
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In Cummins anyway, it seems each new cleaner engine that comes out is also more powerful, and doesn't quite get the same MPG as the older version.

I would guess pound per pound of GVWR current trucks are pretty efficient, but I think it would be OK if one tons had to list standard fuel efficiency numbers. They might advertise who has the best MPG instead of who has the most HP or torque, and I would trade a little HP and torque for a few MPG's.

Last I knew Cummins already meets the tighter 2010 standard as they are now, and some other vehicles (cars) will go to SCR/urea. It will be interesting to see how those are once the bugs are sorted out.
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Old 05-26-2009, 07:01 AM   #7
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Well, here's hoping the guy in Illinois that invented a 100 MPG gasoline engine for autos has a bright future. He just may be the key to solving this issue, if the petroleum giants don't bury him.
Transonic Combustion company also has a 100 MPG retrofit diesel engine in development: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9853175-54.html.
Hopefully these two companies can help solve many issues confronting Rving, and driving in general.
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Old 05-26-2009, 07:12 AM   #8
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:27 AM   #9
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We went down to Myrtle Beach yesterday and went past a lot of new car dealers on our way down Hwy 17 and there are few 3/4 trucks on the lots or they got them hid out back. I think I saw a couple 1 ton and they were work trucks, not like what we use for fivers. (no extended cabs or crew cabs) What I have read and seen on TV the banks are charging 7% for their inventory.
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:26 PM   #10
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I suspect there might be some pretty good buys out there in the 5th wheel towing type pickups.

If Dodge were to extend their lifetime powertrain warranty to diesel pickups, that would maybe get me in to take a serious look at the new 2010's.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:48 AM   #11
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I have been keeping a close eye on 2010 and beyond diesel pickups because I intend to buy one in the Spring of 2010. Dodge meets the new 2010 emission standards and both Ford and GM are building new engines. Ford is in house building a 6.2 litre engine code name Scorpion, GM in partnership with Isuzu is rumored to be bringing out a new Duramax at 6.9 litres designated LML. Current engine is the 6.6 LMM engine.

Both Ford and GM use a DPF filter (Diesel Particulate Filter) which when it goes into regen mode uses fuel to burn off soot and hurts the economy (a bit) for both engines. Ford is selling their 2010 models starting right now until the end of the year and introducing the 2011 MY as of January 1, 2010. GM is doing the same. The new emission controls are supposed to do away with the DPF in favour of a Urea scrub. In tests, it has found to actually boost the MPG ratings on diesels by 1 - 3 mpg. I have had a hard time confirming this, but the Allison transmission on the 2011 GMC/Silverado is supposed to be an 8 speed transmission coupled to the new 6.9 engine, 420 hp @ 750 Torque is the figure being talked about.

I am waiting for the 2011's to come out because I want a truck that will meet the new emissions. I have had confirmation of the GM engine from Pickuptruck.com, and on another site for the Allison transmission from an employee. Rumor also states the transmission could jump all the way to a 10 speed, but I would bet that it would be for larger trucks, not a 3/4 or a 1 ton.

Anyway, I am waiting impatiently (lol) for the 2011 version of the GMC before I buy. Some of you are probably saying "what does this have to do with mileage? If the big 3 are going to meet the future CAFE requirements, and I have heard that their requirements might be exempt as they are now, then the urea scrub is the way to go. The urea scrub will place an additional tank onto the truck which will have to be filled, occassionally, and failure to do so will have a shut-off switch that will prevent the owner from starting the engine. Urea is in plentiful supply so it should be easy to get. You won't be able to remove the DPF filter as you can now. If you are interested in further information, google urea for diesels, and read the articles. GM has released their 2010 Fleet guide on their fleet site :

http://www.gmfleet.com/

There is no mention of the urea scrub anywhere in their guide, and the diesel to be used is still the LMM, all indicators point to the 2011 MY for the new engine.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:28 PM   #12
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I would hope that urea is in plentiful supply. There's plenty of it in URINE.

"What are you doing under the hood of the truck, dear?"
"Just filling the urea tank!"
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