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Old 09-05-2016, 08:36 PM   #15
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Good catch. Door sticker says 2139 lbs for weight. Is this the same as payload?
I'm finding numbers and definitions all over the place
Thanks!
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Old 09-05-2016, 08:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stano1 View Post
Good catch. Door sticker says 2139 lbs for weight. Is this the same as payload?
I'm finding numbers and definitions all over the place
Thanks!
Yes, the door sticker is the payload, or cargo carrying capacity.

And yes, it can all be confusing and overwhelming. Keep asking questions, good group here.

All that said, unfortunately I think you are overloaded.
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Old 09-05-2016, 11:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Stano1 View Post
Good catch. Door sticker says 2139 lbs for weight. Is this the same as payload?
I'm finding numbers and definitions all over the place
Thanks!

Go back and read my earlier post (post #8)

You are overloaded.

Truck weight and trailer pin weight.....over on trucks GVWR
Truck rear axle weight with trailer hooked up......over on RAWR
Truck/trailer total combined weights....most likely close to or over on GCVWR
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Old 09-06-2016, 07:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Stano1 View Post
Good catch. Door sticker says 2139 lbs for weight. Is this the same as payload?
I'm finding numbers and definitions all over the place
Thanks!
Yes that is your payload. Only way to know for sure is to over scale and the 2 axles together when you are hooked up to the 5er. There is a good chance you are over on your rear axle also. At 2139 lbs you are over even before you add passengers hitch, dogs etc. All those numbers are on the door of the truck, GVW, axle weights, those are the ones you need to watch. Probably can add another 6 or 700 lbs to dry weight of 5er. Sorry you need a 3500 SRW at the least. We know a couple people with Montana's and they are using a dually.You actually might have even less than that seeing as you have a Denali with all the options. I don't know about Chevy but Dodge usually lists weights like it was a stripped down model.
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:50 AM   #19
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Angry

I went back to the truck dealership yesterday and as I expected they were all clueless but I was able to score the HD brochure which was a gold mine of weights and specs. Many that I was not able to find online. Payload does vary a few hundred pounds even within the specific truck model. I have seen written many places that your payload is the difference between the GVW rating (10,000 from sticker) and curb weight (which all I can find anywhere is Google , which says 6,000 -6600 ) ( no source listed) if this is true then the payload should be somewhere around 3000 pounds, which I think I would be OK. Not great just OK.
Going by payload listed on door, most everyone is correct, I'm way over.
Me, her, hitch, empty cab equals 450 lbs, pin wt. by keystone is 2500
Any opinions on adding a leaf ?
And what are dangers of being over on pin wt? Excess wear on something like tires , axle?
Thanks for replies !
May have a really sweet Denali or Montana for sale!
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Old 09-07-2016, 08:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Stano1 View Post
Any opinions on adding a leaf ?
And what are dangers of being over on pin wt? Excess wear on something like tires , axle?
Thanks for replies !
May have a really sweet Denali or Montana for sale!
I wouldn't add a leaf. The DOT still thinks of it as a 2500 and many other reasons for not doing it. I was going to suggest that I have the truck you need until I saw that you have a 5.5 Onan, which is probably in the front bay. I don't have a genny just for that specific reason. Too much weight. I am currently looking for a dually as my pin weight is close to 500 lbs. over what Keystone listed it as in the brochure. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if your pin weight is over the listed weight by 600-700 lbs. because of the generator. You really need to run your setup over a scale to really know where you are at with your weights.
I wish you luck with getting this all squared away. I wouldn't want to have to give up the Montana because of a mismatch with the 5er and the TV.
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Old 09-07-2016, 07:38 PM   #21
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It's a mistake many make.... I loved my 3/4 ton, but the dually is incredible!
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Old 09-07-2016, 10:12 PM   #22
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Your payload is 2139#
That is for YOUR specific truck..........forget any brochure/google numbers
The door sticker states 2139# That IS it.

That 5th wheel trailer 2500# pin weight is mfg. brochure published DRY pin weight.
That is based on shipping weight of trailer NOT real world camp ready weight
Figure 3000# WET pin weight by the time you get that trailer packed up ready to go camping

Payload 2139#
3000# wet pin weight
450# people
200# 5th wheel hitch
Exceed your payload by 1511#

3000# wet pin plus 200# hitch adds 3200# to Rear Axle
RAWR is 6200#---minus 3200# leaves only 3000# for truck curb axle weight
So you will be over on RAWR

Truck hooked up to 5th wheel.........
Most likely will exceed your trucks GVWR
Most likely will exceed your truck & trailer GCVWR

No matter which way you figure it...simple math shows your truck will be overloaded.

Load truck trailer up all camp ready and go get weights at a CAT scale
Truck F/R axles and trailer axles
Truck F/R axles (drop trailer and do a re-weigh)

Costs $10-$12
Real world weights info gives you a better idea on how much you are exceeding ratings

Then with that info YOU can make a more informed decision about towing and family safety.
One either uses 'ratings' OR justifies NOT using them
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Old 09-08-2016, 12:53 PM   #23
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Here is some interesting information
Called keystone factory specialist and was told pin weight is still 2520 even with on board gene and stuff in basement!
Been to gmc dealer and they are going to order me a 3500 and give me what I paid for my truck. Guess I'm a better negotiator than researcher😊 Thanks everyone for sharing knowledge
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Old 09-08-2016, 12:57 PM   #24
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Here's the thing that adds to the confusion and often causes someone to buy a 3/4 ton when a 1 ton is what is purportedly needed. "On paper" its clear a 1 ton will handle more payload than a 3/4 and the argument stems from the safety factor of a 3/4 being overloaded according to the "tag on the door jamb". Yet someone will often throw in, "the running gear of a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton (SWD) are virtually the same except for the rear springs, therefore if you beef up the rear springs you'll be ok. Or, plenty of people tow larger 5th wheels without 3/4 ton with incident.

I think it would put things to rest if someone could point out the substantive mechanical differences that allows a typical 1 ton to carry more payload and accordingly be a safer tow vehicle than a 3/4 ton. Are there mechanical differences beyond the purported rear spring that allows the 1 ton to have more payload?

Additionally, it appears to me a heavy TT thats near tow capacity would have more tendency for the tail to wag the dog than a 5th wheel with a pin weight that puts stated payload capacity over a couple of hundred pounds. Am I wrong?
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:00 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
Your payload is 2139#
That is for YOUR specific truck..........forget any brochure/google numbers
The door sticker states 2139# That IS it.

That 5th wheel trailer 2500# pin weight is mfg. brochure published DRY pin weight.
That is based on shipping weight of trailer NOT real world camp ready weight
Figure 3000# WET pin weight by the time you get that trailer packed up ready to go camping

Payload 2139#
3000# wet pin weight
450# people
200# 5th wheel hitch
Exceed your payload by 1511#

3000# wet pin plus 200# hitch adds 3200# to Rear Axle
RAWR is 6200#---minus 3200# leaves only 3000# for truck curb axle weight
So you will be over on RAWR

Truck hooked up to 5th wheel.........
Most likely will exceed your trucks GVWR
Most likely will exceed your truck & trailer GCVWR

No matter which way you figure it...simple math shows your truck will be overloaded.

Load truck trailer up all camp ready and go get weights at a CAT scale
Truck F/R axles and trailer axles
Truck F/R axles (drop trailer and do a re-weigh)

Costs $10-$12
Real world weights info gives you a better idea on how much you are exceeding ratings

Then with that info YOU can make a more informed decision about towing and family safety.
One either uses 'ratings' OR justifies NOT using them
Not sure why this reply is in my reply box, but I wanted to post one more summary of my take away on this. So old biscuit this isn't necessarily back at ya.

First just in case anybody wants numbers for a GMC 2500 (you can see all my truck specs in my description)
Payload per door sticker 2,140 (by far the biggest surprise of this whole thing and probably pushing me towards 3500 especially sense I guilted dealer into buying mine back at great price)
RAWR 6,200
GVWR from sticker 10,000
Front axle 4780
Rear 3140
Pin wt. (per keystone) 2520
Hitch less than 100 (I could lift it easily from ups)
Me and wife and junk 400
Total weight of truck all above full tank 8200

Montana 3160 RL (smallest Montana made) with gene 12,350
8200 (truck) plus loaded camper (no water) 13,400 = 21,600
Max tow weight 13,900 (lowered this year from 17,000 previously)
GCWR 25,100
I mentioned in previous post keystone says on board gene doesn't change pin wt. don't know if I can believe that, but I'm not an engineer
Comments?

is there an argument that RAWR being 6200 and actual wt being 3140 leaves 3,060 of room for pin weight? (Payload)

Lastly payloads are quoted as specific number in brochure but like mine is actually about 400 less as equipped. I wonder how you could find out what it is for your truck if ordering it. I guess you could search for identical model and call dealer and add someone to go out and read it off door tag.

This thread has made me much, much more aware of things ( tire ratings, etc, etc) so thanks everyone for that.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:28 PM   #26
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As in my above post, the only difference I can find between the 2500 and the 3500 are the rear springs. I asked if anybody knew of other mechanical differences. Nonetheless, since the engine, transmission and differential are identical (given the same gear ratio) the "pulling power" would seem to be the same, i.e. a 2500 would pull the trailer up the same hill as a 3500. Its easy to get the idea that unless you go to a dually, a 2500 and a 3500 are basically the same truck, save the rear springs.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:56 PM   #27
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As in my above post, the only difference I can find between the 2500 and the 3500 are the rear springs. I asked if anybody knew of other mechanical differences. Nonetheless, since the engine, transmission and differential are identical (given the same gear ratio) the "pulling power" would seem to be the same, i.e. a 2500 would pull the trailer up the same hill as a 3500. Its easy to get the idea that unless you go to a dually, a 2500 and a 3500 are basically the same truck, save the rear springs.
Without doing an Internet search and coming off like a purported "expert...how about the rear axle and extra set of tires on the back for a start? I wouldn't pull 21,000 lb with a 3/4 ton SWR. Imagine a rear tire blowing out when you are going down a grade with 3,000 lb pin weight and that trailer pushing you. That'd be an E ticket ride.

I guess when I think 1 ton I automatically think DWR.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:51 PM   #28
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Sorry Joe, I was referring to a SRW truck. It clear a dually with the extra wheels would add stability and weight carrying capacity.
Don't worry about coming off as an expert via internet search. We have a lot of folks getting bachelors, masters, and doctorates via the internet these days.
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