RAWR vs. Payload

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by TDI-Minnie

There are a lot of numbers and ratings. The trick is to find the lowest limiting factor.

Good stuff and sage advice.

A really good way to figure out the lowest limiting factor is look on the door pillar for the GAWR and GVWR. Who best to know what was installed on the truck than the manufacturer. After all they know for sure if the same axle is installed in every vehicle or if there are some substitutions.

IMO manufacturers tend to overstate more often than understate.

Picture this: The marketing folks go into the CEO office and saying "those other manufacturers are killing us. Their ratings are way above ours and the sales figures for the last quarter are down xx%."

The CEO calls a meeting with the marketing, engineering, the accountants and company lawyer.

"Folks, marketing is telling me that sales are way down, the competitions ratings are more than ours and we need to respond".

"Engineering what can you do to get our ratings close to theirs. Better yet we need to be well above theirs to get our market share back."

Engineering: "Well we can source some stronger parts, that will add to the weight and our costs will go up a bit but it is quite doable."

Accounting: "That means we will have to cut some of the standard features or raise prices. We could possibly try to get the third party suppliers to give us the better product for the same price but they say they are at their limit. We are priced competitively so a price raise will not do us any favors in the market. What about a smaller safety factor?"

Lawyer: "As long as we state the limits of the truck it will be difficult to successfully sue us if someone overloads their vehicle and has an accident. This is not like a public bridge where the owner has no control over how the infrastructure is loaded. We just say that the vehicle owner overloaded the vehicle beyond the published specifications."

CEO: "OK bring our rating to just below the safety factor and see what that gives us. We cannot continue to lose market share. I do not want to explain market share loss to a bunch of angry shareholders at the next general meeting."

Probably does not happen like this in the real world as we know the manufacturers are all about looking after our safety and well being. There is a certain CEO explaining to Congress why they did not upgrade an ignition switch for about $9 that they knew for several years was defective.

[JIMNLIN]

My point was primarily that payload and RAWR are not the same. Rear axle carries most of the payload, but certainly not all. Passages are part of payload, for example.

It's rare indeed if we over load the trucks front axle with a GN/5th wheel/bumper pull trailer/truck camper....so RAWR is the most important rating not to exceed.
In fact we see some have complained of loosing front axle weight with any of the RVs I mentioned above.

What does a GVWR get you ? Not much as evident of Fords F250/350 SRW trucks sharing the same mechanical components such as a F350 SRW 6.7 diesel 4x4 crew cab 174 " wheelbase 6290 RAWR 5600 FAWR with a 11200 GVWR or a 10000 GVWR....your choice.

Choose the max tow upgrade package with the F250 and it comes with same rear suspension/tires and wheel package as the F350 SRW. These trucks have the same front axle packages/same drive train/frames/brake specs/etc.

[FastEagle]

A reference with a few answers.

U.S. Department of Transportation - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) - Towing A Trailer, Being Equipped for Safety - If You Already Have a Tow Vehicle - DOT HS 809 433 - April 2002

[JIMNLIN]

Guideline only as nothing in the PDF is statutory in nature.
However The only place I saw a "do not exceed warning " was for the GAWRs.
GVWR had no such warning.

PDF page #6
Manufacturers also establish the gross axle weight
and provide a rating that denotes the maximum
weight a single axle can carry. Knowing these
weights will help you when it is time to load your
trailer. Remember that the gross axle weight rating
listed on the tow vehicle’s certification label must
not be exceeded.
.................................................. ....................................

All it says about GVWR is;
• Amount the tow vehicle may weigh when fully
loaded, or gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).

[FastEagle]

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN

Guideline only as nothing in the PDF is statutory in nature.
However The only place I saw a "do not exceed warning " was for the GAWRs.
GVWR had no such warning.

PDF page #6
Manufacturers also establish the gross axle weight
and provide a rating that denotes the maximum
weight a single axle can carry. Knowing these
weights will help you when it is time to load your
trailer. Remember that the gross axle weight rating
listed on the tow vehicle’s certification label must
not be exceeded.
.................................................. ....................................

All it says about GVWR is;
• Amount the tow vehicle may weigh when fully
loaded, or gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).

Oh, you can find it if you look around. This is from NHTSA.

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."

[JIMNLIN]

Again nothing you posted is statutory in nature nor has any thing to do with the subject of "RAWR vs payload" for our tow vehicles.

What you posted comes from the trailer side

[FastEagle]

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN

Again nothing you posted is statutory in nature nor has any thing to do with the subject of "RAWR vs payload" for our tow vehicles.

What you posted comes from the trailer side

I've got a lot of reference material. Sooner or later I'll find one you like but it wont include loading a truck over it's GVWR.

https://www.ntea.com/content.aspx?id=20194

[Cummins12V98]

"Sooner or later I'll find one you like but it wont include loading a truck over it's GVWR"

Ok my 3500 RAM Dually the front axle weighed 5,380# with my wife and I on board after buying the truck. If I load my rear axle to 9,750# (the factory RAWR) my truck will weigh 15,130#. My trucks GVWR is 14,000#.

Am I overloaded?

I say no, the 14K is an imaginary number to keep the truck in Class 3.

My truck has 15K sitting on the 6 tires and is within all axle ratings.

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by Cummins12V98

"Sooner or later I'll find one you like but it wont include loading a truck over it's GVWR"

Ok my 3500 RAM Dually the front axle weighed 5,380# with my wife and I on board after buying the truck. If I load my rear axle to 9,750# (the factory RAWR) my truck will weigh 15,130#. My trucks GVWR is 14,000#.

Am I overloaded?

I say no, the 14K is an imaginary number to keep the truck in Class 3.

My truck has 15K sitting on the 6 tires and is within all axle ratings.

I wonder why the manufacturers would worry about keeping a vehicle in any class when the user can simply license a lower weight in most jurisdictions? Using class rationale and bumping up GVWR would simply enable a smaller truck to move to the top of a class.

If you discount class rationale I expect that the manufacturers are more aware of class actions suits with regard to failures in vehicle systems and are protecting themselves from law suits.

Folks seem to be able to rationalize and selectively cherry pick numbers to justify all kinds of sketchy situations. Off road and track attitudes have moved into the public domain.

[FastEagle]

"Only the manufacturer — or an upfitter that started with an incomplete vehicle — can set the GVWR. There’s no wiggle room or fudge factor here; the rating exists because above it, things can and will break. And if you overload the vehicle, a break may also break your wallet because the warranty won’t cover it. ”


Snip from this reference: http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/12/can-you-boost-your-payload-ratings.html

[Cummins12V98]

Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald

I wonder why the manufacturers would worry about keeping a vehicle in any class when the user can simply license a lower weight in most jurisdictions? Using class rationale and bumping up GVWR would simply enable a smaller truck to move to the top of a class.

If you discount class rationale I expect that the manufacturers are more aware of class actions suits with regard to failures in vehicle systems and are protecting themselves from law suits.

Folks seem to be able to rationalize and selectively cherry pick numbers to justify all kinds of sketchy situations. Off road and track attitudes have moved into the public domain.

It's a fact that insurance companies and States treat 14,001 and higher differently than 14K and under.

My point is if you add the actual front axle weight with just two passengers plus the factory rear axle rating it's over 15K. No "Cherry Picking" there.

[TDI-Minnie]

Axle weight rating is only one of many considerations. How strong are the brakes, how stiff is the suspension, how thick are the swaybars, what gears are you running, how strong are the wheels? Again, you need to understand the lowest limiting factor (or combination of factors).

And what is all this about statutory?? These are not laws, they are recommendations from manufacturers for safety. If you intend to push those, just get a bigger truck and quit worrying about it.

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by Cummins12V98

It's a fact that insurance companies and States treat 14,001 and higher differently than 14K and under.

My point is if you add the actual front axle weight with just two passengers plus the factory rear axle rating it's over 15K. No "Cherry Picking" there.

Not the jurisdiction I am in. I suppose they do if you are commercial however I am able to register my Ford 450 (GVWR 16,000) as a pleasure vehicle. Of course my insurance company wants more money but they base the premiums on the vehicle value.

In the case of GAWR (front), GAWR (rear) and GVWR the manufacturer seems unable to do the math correctly according to your addition. If you look at the RAM brochures I am sure you will find a disclaimer that states not to exceed the GVWR. Ford and GM have the same disclaimer in their brochures.

[Dasmoeturhead]

I was reading the Ram manual today, and it says in Bold Lettering; do not go over the weight specifications that are on the door lable. That's there way out I guess.