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Old 09-01-2015, 10:25 AM   #1
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RAWR vs. Payload

Question for the group.....Looking at the RAM 3500 as a tow vehicle which has a payload rating of 5600 lbs and a RAWR of 9700 lbs. My confusion is relating to how much pin weight can this truck actually handle? If the pin is over 6000 lbs, is that overloading the truck?
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:22 AM   #2
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You dont' have enough information to answer that question...

You need to know what the weight on the rear axle is with the truck unhooked... Difference between that weight and RAWR is how much you can add to just the rear axle.

You also need to consider what the whole truck weights wet and loaded - GVWR... That number will tell you how much pin weight you can add without being out on GVWR.

For example... (don't quote my numbers, trying to remember off the top of my head for example only)

My 2500 has a RAWR of 6,100lbs.
Wet and ready to camp the truck weighs 7600 lbs
Rear Axle weight (actual) is 2,900 lbs
GVWR = 9,000

Therefore: amount of pin weight I could add to the rear axle = 6100-2900 = 3,200lbs

But, oh no, If I add that pin weight to actual truck weight: 3200+7600= 10,800

That means I am 1,800 lbs over GVWR on the truck

Does that make sense?
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:49 AM   #3
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Yes...thanks, that explains it.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau View Post
Question for the group.....Looking at the RAM 3500 as a tow vehicle which has a payload rating of 5600 lbs and a RAWR of 9700 lbs. My confusion is relating to how much pin weight can this truck actually handle? If the pin is over 6000 lbs, is that overloading the truck?

Weights at time of pic.

Front 5,460 Rear 9,580 Loaded weights

Front 5,380 Rear 3,634 no hitch or toolbox

Front+ 80# Rear+ 5,946

All numbers within axle ratings. Truck has auto rear air.

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Old 09-01-2015, 05:26 PM   #5
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Cummins:

Doesn't that take you over the GVWR of 14000 lbs? Or is that not a big deal?
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:56 PM   #6
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Payload rating is meaningless unless you have purchased a basic truck with the smallest engine and no accessories. I believe they include some fuel but not sure if they consider the tank full or not. Oh - and the driver has to be a jockey. Think of it as a magic number that is estimated to be as large as possible to impress folks, but in reality it will not include many of the things you want or will include with the purchase.

There are a couple numbers to address.

GAWR (rear) In order to determine the maximum pin weight you load the truck up as you will for towing the trailer. Full fuel, add the family and DW, dog(s), kids toys, the grill or fuel you will put in the back along with leveling blocks, firewood or whatever. Weigh that and subtract the Rear weight from the GAWR (rear). If the hitch is not installed subtract another 150 lbs from the difference. The resulting number is the max pin weight you can carry.

If you do not have an actual pin weight of the loaded trailer a reasonable rule of thumb is to take the GVWR and muliply it by .20 to get an estimated pin weight. If you want to be safer use .25.

Many claim they will never get close to the GVW of the trailer but they must not be married to say that. DW will find all kinds of stuff to fill the available spaces and soon the weight will be there.

GCWR. Take the loaded weight of the truck and add the loaded weight of the trailer. Include full water and propane tanks and unless you always travel with totally empty holding tanks I would fill them as well. If the number is bigger than the GCWR you are over your trucks capacity.

The most important number is GVWR. If the GVWR on your truck is 14,000 and is loaded as demonstrated in the post by Cummins the truck is 1000 lbs over according to the manufacturers specifications.

If you look at the specifications posted by all of the manufacturers (big 3) they say that you are not supposed to go over any of the specifications, that is you are not allowed to cherry pick in order to achieve the maximum based on one criteria. All must be met.
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Clouseau View Post
... a tow vehicle which has a payload rating of 5600 lbs .... If the pin is over 6000 lbs, is that overloading the truck?
Of course. If the available actual payload is confirmed by a truck scale to be 5,600 pounds, and your kingpin weight confirmed by a truck scale is an actual 6,000 pounds , then you're overloaded. The truck scale will show that you exceed the GVWR of your tow vehicle, and that's overloaded.

Don't try to ignore some of the weight ratings of your tow vehicle. There are several weight ratings for various components of the tow vehicle. and all are important. GVWR, front and rear GAWR, GCWR, tire weight ratings, wheel weight ratings, hitch weight ratings, axle weight ratings, etc. GAWR is not the same as the axle weight rating. Axle weight rating is just the rear axle/differential. GAWR includes everything at the rear of the tow vehicle - tires, wheels, frame, springs and other suspension components as well as the axle/differential.

For example. I have the specs for a 2009 F-250 handy. Max rear GAWR was 6,100 pounds, but the rear axle/differential was rated for 6,200 pounds. So something else in the rear end of the truck was rated less than the axle rating, so the GAWR was less than the axle rating.

Chassis engineering gets complicated in a hurry. But you don't need to understand the bits and pieces as long as you don't exceed any of the weight ratings. Ford, GM and Ram all say in their towing specs that you should NEVER exceed the GVWR, GAWR or GCWR of your tow vehicle.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau View Post
Question for the group.....Looking at the RAM 3500 as a tow vehicle which has a payload rating of 5600 lbs and a RAWR of 9700 lbs. My confusion is relating to how much pin weight can this truck actually handle? If the pin is over 6000 lbs, is that overloading the truck?
How much any trucks payload is determined by its axle/tire load ratings. And the RAWR in particular as its going to carry all the the weight in the bed including the pin.
The trailer your looking at may have a 6k pin weight.
Now add 200 lbs for a hitch and several hundred pounds for occupants and maybe 400 lbs for a aux fuel tank if used and other heavy items you add to the truck. It all adds up against a truck payload.

GVWR/payload sticker isn't used by roadside enforcement to determine how much load a trucks axles/tires can carry.
I see some folks use a GVWR figure;
and some use the GAWR figure;
some use the truck payload sticker;
and some use a payload from a complicated GCWR number.

The 3500 Ram has a 9750 RAWR. I see many owners reporting a rear axle weight in the 3400-3600 lb range which leaves around 6000 lb payload.

The 4500 Ram/Dodge cab and chassis trucks has the bigger 12000 lb RAWR for trailers with 6k pin weights.....plus all the other necessary stuff we carry.
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Old 09-02-2015, 09:49 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post

For example. I have the specs for a 2009 F-250 handy. Max rear GAWR was 6,100 pounds, but the rear axle/differential was rated for 6,200 pounds. So something else in the rear end of the truck was rated less than the axle rating, so the GAWR was less than the axle rating.
Hey Smokey, That Sterling 10.5 axle/diff (made by Visteon) in your 09 F250 is actually rated for 9750lbs.
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:17 AM   #10
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Cummins:

Doesn't that take you over the GVWR of 14000 lbs? Or is that not a big deal?
Good eye! The fact is these new RAM trucks are truly 4500's with 3500's badges. Class three GVWR is limited to 14K. Anything over that is considered commercial in many insurance companies and States eyes.
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Old 09-02-2015, 01:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post

The 3500 Ram has a 9750 RAWR. I see many owners reporting a rear axle weight in the 3400-3600 lb range which leaves around 6000 lbs.
Incorrect.
Payload is shared between both axles. In the case of the 2500 Ram, the gasser has about 1,000lbs more payload than the Cummins diesel because that is the difference in weight between the engines. The RAWR should be the same on these.
So you really need to know how much is on each axel and also what the limits of the tires are.
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Old 09-02-2015, 05:54 PM   #12
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Not true in all years Dodges... 3/4 ton gassers in 2005 got a smaller rear axle that the diesels did...
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:08 PM   #13
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I said;
Quote:
The 3500 Ram has a 9750 RAWR. I see many owners reporting a rear axle weight in the 3400-3600 lb range which leaves around 6000 lb payload.
TDI-minnie says;
Quote:
Incorrect.
Payload is shared between both axles.

So your saying a 3500 Ram doesn't have a 9750 RAWR and many 3500 DRW owners don't report a 3400-3600 lb empty rear axle weight or can have a 6k payload ???

The OP doesn't have a 2500 truck
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:39 AM   #14
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There are a lot of numbers and ratings. The trick is to find the lowest limiting factor.

My point was primarily that payload and RAWR are not the same. Rear axle carries most of the payload, but certainly not all. Passages are part of payload, for example.
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