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Old 01-03-2017, 10:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
I agree, but thats the case with any large trailer ( think 5er ) on a smaller tow vehicle.
Makes me wonder why so many folks are adamant they can tow trailers with the truck at or over capacity. "Tows just fine".
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:22 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald View Post
Makes me wonder why so many folks are adamant they can tow trailers with the truck at or over capacity. "Tows just fine".
Of course, it "tows just fine".

Maybe this article will shine some light: My Truck Pulls It Just Fine, Truck Buyers Beware
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Old 01-18-2017, 03:20 PM   #73
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My TT Weight Calculator

I have access to a set of scales at our local transfer station - a County facility. The scales are too short to measure my truck and my trailer together so I get three weights from the scale operator. First I weigh the truck only with the trailer hitched, then I move forward and weigh just the hitched trailer, then I unhitch the trailer over by the recycling bins and get a weight for just the truck (incl. WD hitch). Iíve developed a spreadsheet to calculated the information I need given these three weights and the specs for my truck and trailer. Iíve provided a link below in case anyone would like to give it a try.

Some notes:
This is set up for my travel trailer. Might not apply to your rig. Thereís a small separate calculation for water weight because my trailer has a large tank thatís forward of the axles and thatís how I manage my tongue weight. Itís a protected worksheet that only letís you enter numbers in the cells with the black borders, but thereís no password for the protection. Mess it up if you like. Itís set up to record two weighing sessions with different loads and example numbers entered in the first session. Please let me know if you find any errors. Please feel free to use it AT YOUR OWN RISK.

As suspected, the example numbers revealed an overloaded truck with a full TT water tank but with adequate overall capacity if stuff is moved around. Itís was very helpful.

As this is my first attempt at sharing a worksheet in this way - my apologies if something doesn't work.

Here is the link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/71ri8qvua0...ator.xlsx?dl=0
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:32 AM   #74
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As this is my first attempt at sharing a worksheet in this way - my apologies if something doesn't work.
Nice job. You sure put a lot of work into creating the worksheet.

I guess you have never seen the 4-Step Weight Safety Plan at Fifth Wheel Street.
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Old 01-20-2017, 11:15 AM   #75
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Nice job. You sure put a lot of work into creating the worksheet.

I guess you have never seen the 4-Step Weight Safety Plan at Fifth Wheel Street.
Thanks! I hadn't seen those calculators before. Should have used them before I bought the truck.

The worksheet was worth the effort, though. I can enter the weights on my iPad right at the scales to check my load and trim. Basically, at the beginning of a trip, when we're all loaded up with provisions and gear, I use it to see how much water I can take without exceeding the truck's payload.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:55 PM   #76
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GCWR, GVW etc are measures of mechanical ability [ie before things break], not measures of safety. Safety requires a comprehension of FORCES.

Example... your truck brakes are engineered for the truck's GVW, not the GCWR. I have yet to see any TT with brakes matching the mass of the TT. Thus, the TT's brake deficit must be controlled/absorbed by the truck: ie the truck must control extra force. But many more forces are in play than just brakes.

The golden rule is always to have more truck than you think needed. If your TT weights are nearing 75% of your truck's mechanical capabilities, you should be upgrading your truck.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:24 AM   #77
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GCWR, GVW etc are measures of mechanical ability [ie before things break], not measures of safety. Safety requires a comprehension of FORCES.

Example... your truck brakes are engineered for the truck's GVW, not the GCWR. I have yet to see any TT with brakes matching the mass of the TT. Thus, the TT's brake deficit must be controlled/absorbed by the truck: ie the truck must control extra force. But many more forces are in play than just brakes.

The golden rule is always to have more truck than you think needed. If your TT weights are nearing 75% of your truck's mechanical capabilities, you should be upgrading your truck.
I do not know what you may have been taught in Canada, but if you own a US made tow vehicle built to the specifications required by NHTSA, you would know that ratings such as GVWR, GAWR, GCWR, and TWR are primarily related to safety and vehicle longevity.

Here are just a few examples:

The primary government organization providing manufacturing requirements is the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), and its mission statement is: “Save lives, prevent injuries and reduce economic costs due to road traffic crashes, through education, research, safety standards and enforcement activity.”

NHTSA issues Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) to implement laws from Congress. These regulations allow them to fulfill their mission to prevent and reduce vehicle crashes. [Safety!]

NHTSA’s pamphlet, Towing a Trailer, Being Equipped for Safety, mentions safety 23 times.

Here is a quote from the 49 CFR 571 - FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS: “The purpose of this standard is to ensure safe braking performance under normal and emergency conditions.

The Certification Label located near or on the driver side door requires a statement similar to this: “This vehicle conforms to all applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, bumper, and theft prevention standards in effect on the date of manufacture shown above.”

All vehicle owner’s manuals have rating warnings and cautions directly related to safety.

Many components that make up a vehicle do have failure ratings. However, just about all vehicle’s safety ratings are below the failure rating. Considering the fact that 60% of all tow vehicles are exceeding at least one safety rating, there is no evidence that the vehicles have massive mechanical failures. However, continuous operation of a vehicle exceeding the safety ratings may result in premature mechanical failure.

You are correct about one thing. Some tow vehicle owner's manuals may state: "The towing vehicle's brake system is rated for operation at the GVWR—NOT GCWR. Separate functional brake systems should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers weighing more than 1,500 lbs. when loaded." However, if you know for a fact that a manufacturer is installing trailer brakes that are not rated to stop it within the federal requirements, then you need to report it immediately to NHTSA.

Depending on how you are interpreting the “golden rule,” in most cases, that rule has been debunked. Read this article: Is the 80% Towing Rule Safe?
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:07 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Cyclone Dave View Post
I do not know what you may have been taught in Canada, but if you own a US made tow vehicle built to the specifications required by NHTSA, you would know that ratings such as GVWR, GAWR, GCWR, and TWR are primarily related to safety and vehicle longevity.

Here are just a few examples:

The primary government organization providing manufacturing requirements is the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), and its mission statement is: “Save lives, prevent injuries and reduce economic costs due to road traffic crashes, through education, research, safety standards and enforcement activity.”

NHTSA issues Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) to implement laws from Congress. These regulations allow them to fulfill their mission to prevent and reduce vehicle crashes. [Safety!]

NHTSA’s pamphlet, Towing a Trailer, Being Equipped for Safety, mentions safety 23 times.

Here is a quote from the 49 CFR 571 - FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS: “The purpose of this standard is to ensure safe braking performance under normal and emergency conditions.

The Certification Label located near or on the driver side door requires a statement similar to this: “This vehicle conforms to all applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, bumper, and theft prevention standards in effect on the date of manufacture shown above.”

All vehicle owner’s manuals have rating warnings and cautions directly related to safety.

Many components that make up a vehicle do have failure ratings. However, just about all vehicle’s safety ratings are below the failure rating. Considering the fact that 60% of all tow vehicles are exceeding at least one safety rating, there is no evidence that the vehicles have massive mechanical failures. However, continuous operation of a vehicle exceeding the safety ratings may result in premature mechanical failure.

You are correct about one thing. Some tow vehicle owner's manuals may state: "The towing vehicle's brake system is rated for operation at the GVWR—NOT GCWR. Separate functional brake systems should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers weighing more than 1,500 lbs. when loaded." However, if you know for a fact that a manufacturer is installing trailer brakes that are not rated to stop it within the federal requirements, then you need to report it immediately to NHTSA.

Depending on how you are interpreting the “golden rule,” in most cases, that rule has been debunked. Read this article: Is the 80% Towing Rule Safe?
Agree. The info provided is great: everyone should read. The 80% article outlines the reasons why standards and 80% may lead to unsafe conditions. Standards enforce compliance by manufacturers: indispensable. For drivers, they are guidelines, as driver knowledge and discretion must apply: drivers are fallible.

My point about force is demonstrated easily by elementary physics. A TV and TT joined by a hitch is the same as a lever supported by a fulcrum. In school, we learned a teeter-totter can be balanced on the fulcrum: forces on left equal forces on right. This is calculated as WD = WD [weight x distance]. Assume: 1/ A 20ft TV is loaded to max of 10k# GVW [including tongue weight]: 2/ A 30ft TT is loaded to max 10k# GVW. This results in an inherently unstable lever. The static potential force of the TV is 20ft x 10k# = 200,000 ft-lbs. The TT is 30ft x 10k# = 300,000 ft-lbs. Add forward velocity to the static forces and the total kinetic forces multiply greatly. The longer and heavier the TT and greater the velocity, the greater the forces transferred to the TV. [nb: this “analysis” is deliberately over-simplified to make a simple point]

For a TV and TT loaded to standards in perfect driving conditions, a sudden change in forces [bumps, cross winds, etc] may be controlled by driver skill and vehicle design. But in slippery conditions, the forces may well be uncontrollable. I use the “standards” and “ratings” to inform me what mechanical limits I can place upon the TV and TT. But I use the physics of Levers to determine safety limits.

Drivers are free to put their faith as and where they choose.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:04 PM   #79
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Ken,

Try HERE

Rusty
Hi Rusty, You have my dream combination. Does your truck pull well up long hills and more importantly will it stop that 5er well and hold it back down long hills ?

what is the weight of your 5er loaded ?
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:29 AM   #80
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moosedriver I have a very similar combo to Rusty. I tow 33K combined and I am at or within axle ratings and combined ratings. Truck handles the load with confidence in ALL conditions. My 5er is 23K.
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:18 PM   #81
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right on and you are within safety standards go figure lol oh and the trailer has no brakes to help the truck mmmm.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:17 PM   #82
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Example... your truck brakes are engineered for the truck's GVW, not the GCWR. I have yet to see any TT with brakes matching the mass of the TT. Thus, the TT's brake deficit must be controlled/absorbed by the truck: ie the truck must control extra force. But many more forces are in play than just brakes.
Actually our trucks brakes are a function on the vehicle axle ratings.
NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating".

dexter axle;

The Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) of your running gear is determined by the lowest rated component in the assembly. The capacity of the wheel, tire, axle, brake, springs/rubber and hub are all considered.

Sum up the braking performance on 7k axles on a triaxle GN trailer and a 4500 CC Ford with a haulers bed at 7000 fawr....14706 rawr = 42706 lbs of combined braking performance.
We simply don't have the braking issues today as we had with the same size trucks in the '60s/'70s era.

With those old trucks the 80 percent recommendation was a good idea for commercial work or just pulling a rv on occasion. Todays trucks can be and are operated at 100 percent.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:13 AM   #83
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Actually our trucks brakes are a function on the vehicle axle ratings.
NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating".

dexter axle;

The Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) of your running gear is determined by the lowest rated component in the assembly. The capacity of the wheel, tire, axle, brake, springs/rubber and hub are all considered.

Sum up the braking performance on 7k axles on a triaxle GN trailer and a 4500 CC Ford with a haulers bed at 7000 fawr....14706 rawr = 42706 lbs of combined braking performance.
We simply don't have the braking issues today as we had with the same size trucks in the '60s/'70s era.

With those old trucks the 80 percent recommendation was a good idea for commercial work or just pulling a rv on occasion. Todays trucks can be and are operated at 100 percent.
I agree brakes now days have increased. So have loads and the speeds the load is hauled at as a general statement.

I would beg to differ on the capacity when being used. The stated capacity is brand new on the floor. Brake degradation as the vehicle ages and is used will soon reduce the calculated performance.
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:17 PM   #84
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I agree brakes now days have increased. So have loads and the speeds the load is hauled at as a general statement.

I would beg to differ on the capacity when being used. The stated capacity is brand new on the floor. Brake degradation as the vehicle ages and is used will soon reduce the calculated performance.
Although I have never seen it in writing, I suspect the ratings include normal wear. On-the-other-hand, I doubt there is any degrading. The brake material should be consistent throughout the life to the pads. Any wear will always match the rotor maintaining close to 100% effectiveness until the pad has worn away or the rotor has failed.
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