Tow Vehicle Torque/HP questions

[Highway 4x4]

Wilde, we need more info. What and where are you towing? How many miles a year? How deep are your pockets? What SUV's are you looking at to tow what?

[Wireman1]

Wilde, I assume you are looking at a JGC or Ram ecodiesel. I own 1 and will be towing a TT approx. #5500 lbs loaded.


I have a 4WD and it's rated to tow 7200 lbs. Really nice ride, smooth engine, great mileage.


I recommend it highly. You just limit yourself on TT size and weight compared to a pickup.

[dix39]

Another way to come up with an answer is to get all the pertinent information about the vehicle in question, trans top gear ratio, diff ratio, and tire dia. and plug it in to a calculator that can easily be found on the internet. This will give you the rpm-mph information about any gear ratio combinations being considered. It would also be a good idea to have some information about the lowest gearing because this must be capable of getting the vehicle started with the heaviest load on the steepest incline.

Steve

[SmokeyWren]

Your best bet for an SUV that can tow a decent-size TT without being overloaded is a VW Touareg TDI (diesel). But VW fell in the mud and got all dirty, so VW is no longer producing the TDI model of the Touareg. But there are still a few new (or almost new) ones available.

A Touareg is a "luxury" SUV, so not cheap. Here is a 2016 for $60k that has less than 1,000 miles on it.
New 2016 Volkswagen Touareg TDI Lux for sale in MIDLAND, TX 79707 - Kelley Blue Book

You won't find specs for the TDI model on the VW website. But they're on the dealer's website above. Or here:
New 2016 Volkswagen Touareg TDI Lux for sale in MIDLAND, TX 79707 - Kelley Blue Book

The problem with all SUVs is they can either tow a decent-size trailer or they can haul a cabin full of passengers, but not both at the same time without being overloaded. Payload on that one is only 1168, so with two people and a WD hitch and nothing else in the SUV, that leaves a max available payload capacity for hitch weight of about 768 pounds. Average hitch weight of a TT is 13%, so that's a max trailer weight of about 5,900 pounds.

Tow rating of the 2016 Touareg TDI is 7,716 when nothing is in the SUV but a skinny driver, and the trailer is a "wagon style" trailer with minimal hitch weight. But a TT is not a wagon-style trailer, and you'll have more than a skinny driver in the SUV. So your choice in TTs is limited to those with GVWR less than 6,000 pounds. Other SUVs have the same limitation, unless you back up a few years and find a GM 2500 or a Ford Excursion. But those 3/4-ton SUVs haven't been produced for several years, so good luck in finding one good enough to tow your TT and haul your family at the same time.

Much more practical is a CrewCab pickup. New pickups are available with enough payload capacity to haul the hitch weight of even the biggest TTs. Most half-ton pickups don't qualify. My F-150 is overloaded with my TT that has GVWR of 5,600 pounds. You won't find many choices in TTs that have less than 6,000 pounds GVWR, but mine is proof that a few are available.

[Wireman1]

Touareg, is a nice vehicle. I was a week away from pulling the trigger on a used 2014 and then they stepped in it.


I wasn't sure how the actual value would be affected with all the issues that are still unresolved. There for I backed away.


Ended up with a new 2015 Jeep grand Cherokee limited 4x4 diesel for a few grand more. Very happy with my choice.


FYI, Touareg--- 240HP 406 ft/lbs torque


JGC 240 HP 420 ft/lbs torque.


Again, your trailer weight and length are limited more with the SUV than with a pickup. For the TT I wanted the Jeep met my needs.

[4x4dually]

Originally Posted by Bob1340

Torque is what tows, Horsepower gets you going. The higher the torque the more you can tow, the higher the horsepower the faster you can get up to speed.

I've always thought the opposite.....that torque is what gets you moving and HP is what keeps you moving....at least that has always been the big debate on the diesel sites arguing which is more important for drag racing.

Regardless......towing anything with an SUV that is already top heavy and un-stable at best has never been anything I'd be willing to try.....then again, I've always had trucks with training wheels and over 500hp too.

I'd be more concerned at how you can control trailer whip and oscillation with an SUV before I'd be concerned with towing power. That's just my $.02

[Wireman1]

It's not the vehicle that's the problem. Towing with in it's limits, a properly setup WDH, and driving within your ability will keep you safe.


Many new SUV's & trucks have a built in sway control for the vehicle. Add a quality WDH with a sway control also helps.


The TT I'm getting also has a factory option, Sway command electronic sway control that modulates the trailer brakes when sway is detected.


Assuming that just because it's not a pickup, it's worthless for towing, isn't reasonable.


As I stated before, a pickup will allow you to tow a heavier and longer TT. SUV's have there place and thousands of RV'er are using them.


I wanted to get a pickup but it wouldn't fit in my garage. I didn't want it sitting outside either. So a SUV was my next option.


You decide what's best for you.

[4x4dually]

Originally Posted by Steve Fisher

Assuming that just because it's not a pickup, it's worthless for towing, isn't reasonable.

I agree, I guess my point was that there are so many vehicles on the road that are so under-rated and capable of controlling what they are pulling. It is dangerous to everyone. What's worse, is the amount of folks driving them have wouldn't have the foggiest clue what to do if something went wrong during the pull. It's scary to me. For instance, the 1500 trucks towing a 30' 5-er.

Just be sure you have enough vehicle to control it is all I was meaning to say.

[Wireman1]

!0-4, your right on all counts with ignorant people out there towing stuff they shouldn't be. Sometimes it's their fault, sometimes not.

The worse part is the dealers who sold them TT's or 5'ers that are to much for their vehicle.

I tend to do a lot of research, bought my tow vehicle first and now waiting for my TT than I purchased and I know I can tow safely.

[RGene7001]

OK, let's cut to the chase.
HP is a measure of total work, energy produced by the engine. It will determine your success in 0-60 race or drag race with the trailer.
Torque is a measure of turning force of the engine, so it will pull your trailer with no scream or drama, even if you have a crappy 4 speed transmission or wrong rear end ratio.
Gas engines produce a lot of HPs, but they are usually available close to the top end of rpm range, and many people don't like it.
Diesel engines produce less power, but it is more usable.
Finally, it's quite difficult to find really crappy transmission in newer vehicles, nowadays, they are usually close ratio 7 or 8 speed, so it is possible to multiply engine torque, so in the end of the day you will be equally fine with both engines. You don't need all 350hp to move your trailer @65 mph, even uphill. Perhaps, this 350/350 gasser will run @ slightly higher rpms than 240/420 diesel and will have less gas mileage. I have 268/258/7 speed and it still does the job.
If the choice is between Explorer and Jeep GC, I would go for Jeep, either gas or diesel

[Wilde]

Thanks for all the replies guys. The numbers I'm using are arbitrary. I'm basically comparing a diesel SUV to a regular 300+ hp gas SUV. I'm well aware that trucks are better tow vehicles, but they're not practical for our current situation.

[JohnBoyToo]

I had a diesel Excursion that was a beast until I hooked a 30 ft TT onto it, even with the BEST Propride hitch it handled well, but too much weight for the heavy body.

we opted for a short bed crew cab single rear wheel diesel pickup that did fit in the garage and loved it ! more comfort than the proverbial cadillac - with air conditioned & heated front seats and heated rear seats !

Not sure where some studied engine dynamics,
but torque and hp are directly related - even by formula:
HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252
so, torque is measured, then the HP is calculated from torque.
and torque is the amount of work (ft-lbs or lbs moved a foot)
and HP is how fast that work is done.

NOW, tuning, cams, etc... CAN adjust WHERE and WHEN that torque or HP is maximized, but they are still directly related.

theory aside, torque is the king in towing, and diesels produce more torque per cubic inch than gas....
most NA gas vehicles have a one to one hp to torque ratio like our jeep's 3.6L 280 hp/285 lbft torque but our lil cummins 6.7L diesel is rated at 425HP/1250lbft torque.
I'll take diesel and torque and less drama driving every day over gas !

Think about it,
If gas where the king, would ups, fedex, us mail, etc., etc... be driving diesels ?

[1bigmess]

Originally Posted by Wilde

Thanks for all the replies guys. The numbers I'm using are arbitrary. I'm basically comparing a diesel SUV to a regular 300+ hp gas SUV. I'm well aware that trucks are better tow vehicles, but they're not practical for our current situation.

It may not end up being a matter of practicality. Depending on what you end up towing, the SUV might not be able to do it safely. So know what the vehicle can handle based on its published limits, and don't exceed them. Weigh the rig when you get it all together.

Have fun!

[Starbreaker]

Horse Power sells cars, Torque moves them