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Old 11-15-2013, 09:02 AM   #43
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I to am an engineer and was a test pilot for 30 plus years. What was not in my curriculum at college was that it's usually small stuff that does not get much engineering attention during design that will upset the apple cart just as fast as the big stuff. Apple cart is not an engineering term! When you are pushing the limits, like at or near maximum load and a .79 cent piece of hardware does an early retirement it can get interesting. We used the term "just ran out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at the same time". Never assume that the engineering guys designed in a fudge factor (redundancy) to protect you. They usually do, but management often adds more bells and whistles after design and what was a safe design becomes design limited. I have seen this with RV's many times and encountered it in the front suspension of a previous truck. Just saying that I have got to a ripe old age by not pushing the limits of anything I operate be it my motor home, tractors or cars. I believe that towing and weight restrictions are a big selling factor on pick up trucks and that there is not much wiggle room on those limits. Be cautious with operating at or near any of the stated limits as they were often as as not established in the board room after the CAD/CAM guys finished and the marketing guys had their vote. That is reality.
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:13 AM   #44
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The manufacturers are very clear on the subject. The Ram bodybuilder's guide that contains all of the specs for the Ram trucks (including the infamous "Manufacturer's Trailer Tow Rating") states the following in footnote #4 on the same page(s) that give the trailer tow ratings:

Quote:
Additionally, the GAWRs and GVWRs should never be exceeded.
The rationale that is used to grab onto the trailer tow rating while simultaneously ignoring this warning is absolutely amazing.

Rusty
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:24 AM   #45
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I to am an engineer and was a test pilot for 30 plus years. What was not in my curriculum at college was that it's usually small stuff that does not get much engineering attention during design that will upset the apple cart just as fast as the big stuff. Apple cart is not an engineering term! When you are pushing the limits, like at or near maximum load and a .79 cent piece of hardware does an early retirement it can get interesting. We used the term "just ran out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at the same time". Never assume that the engineering guys designed in a fudge factor (redundancy) to protect you. They usually do, but management often adds more bells and whistles after design and what was a safe design becomes design limited. I have seen this with RV's many times and encountered it in the front suspension of a previous truck. Just saying that I have got to a ripe old age by not pushing the limits of anything I operate be it my motor home, tractors or cars. I believe that towing and weight restrictions are a big selling factor on pick up trucks and that there is not much wiggle room on those limits. Be cautious with operating at or near any of the stated limits as they were often as as not established in the board room after the CAD/CAM guys finished and the marketing guys had their vote. That is reality.
True enough, I usually over build/spec. My challenge is not the cost but the inconvenience of length and width. I want my cake and eat it too.

Most likely going dually and not happy about it.
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:42 AM   #46
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True enough, I usually over build/spec. My challenge is not the cost but the inconvenience of length and width. I want my cake and eat it too.

Most likely going dually and not happy about it.
Ford Crew Cab long box dually is 22' long 8' wide
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:57 AM   #47
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Ford Crew Cab long box dually is 22' long 8' wide
Aint' putting that baby in the garage.. So it sits outside in the weather and deteriorates and fails and you crash; when you could have had an ext cab short box SRW in the garage that runs forever.

Point is there are MANY different scenarios and to look and obsess about and one is weight, other are infinite like maintenance, climate etc. etc.

Root cause analysis looks at all the contributing factors to an accident (or potential accident) and many (if not most) times it takes a number of flaws to add up to the whoops. Complacency comes in when you ignore enough of the factors (overweight, unmaintained, etc.) that the accident moves from possible to probable to BANG. Don't forget the forest for the tree.

Just saying.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:05 AM   #48
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Aint' putting that baby in the garage.. So it sits outside in the weather and deteriorates and fails and you crash; when you could have had an ext cab short box SRW in the garage that runs forever.

Point is there are MANY different scenarios and to look and obsess about and one is weight, other are infinite like maintenance, climate etc. etc.

Root cause analysis looks at all the contributing factors to an accident (or potential accident) and many (if not most) times it takes a number of flaws to add up to the whoops. Complacency comes in when you ignore enough of the factors (overweight, unmaintained, etc.) that the accident moves from possible to probable to BANG. Don't forget the forest for the tree.

Just saying.
What are you saying I should be back on the SRW short box track?
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:00 AM   #49
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What are you saying I should be back on the SRW short box track?
If an SRW truck is an absolute requirement and the truck's weight ratings are an obstacle, how about considering a lighter 5th wheel?

Rusty
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:33 AM   #50
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If an SRW truck is an absolute requirement and the truck's weight ratings are an obstacle, how about considering a lighter 5th wheel?

Rusty
Rusty just got the 2014 Super Duty Brochure

2014 Ford Super duty 350 SRW SuperCab long box
Max GVWR 11500 LBS (This is a package order for the Max GVWR 18" wheels)
MAX PAYLOAD 4000 LBS (158" WB) Higher by 180 lbs with short box
GCWR SRW 23500 LBS (22,200 LBS DRW note lower GCWR for dually)

The only significant advantage for the dually is the payload and by the numbers it is actually worst for GCWR unless using a 4.30 rear end.

I don't want the short box only because it drops the fuel tank size from 142 litres to 98 litres and that means nore stops.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:07 PM   #51
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The only significant advantage for the dually is the payload and by the numbers it is actually worst for GCWR unless using a 4.30 rear end.
That's quite a large significant advantage insofar as the ratings are concerned and is the primary reason for towing large, heavy 5th wheels with a DRW truck - the ability to handle the higher pin weights without exceeding the truck's GVWR or rear GAWR.

The GCWR item is interesting but doesn't apply in the case of the 2014 Ram. SRW trucks (2500 & 3500) can only be ordered with 3.42 axle ratios for corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) regulation reasons, while the DRW truck can be ordered with the 3.42, 3.73 or 4.10 axle ratios, and GCWRs increase with the lower (higher numerical) ratios.

Rusty
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:30 PM   #52
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That's quite a large significant advantage insofar as the ratings are concerned and is the primary reason for towing large, heavy 5th wheels with a DRW truck - the ability to handle the higher pin weights without exceeding the truck's GVWR or rear GAWR.

The GCWR item is interesting but doesn't apply in the case of the 2014 Ram. SRW trucks (2500 & 3500) can only be ordered with 3.42 axle ratios for corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) regulation reasons, while the DRW truck can be ordered with the 3.42, 3.73 or 4.10 axle ratios, and GCWRs increase with the lower (higher numerical) ratios.

Rusty
RGAWR 7000+ LBS (7200LBS?) I can't find it in the brochure but saw it somewhere in my research.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:47 PM   #53
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Biron,

See my truck in the signature.

GVWR = 13,300#
GCWR = 30,000#
Front GAWR =5,250#
Rear GAWR = 9,000#

With the DRW in the F350 you get the 3.73 axle.

My truck loaded with fuel and tool boxes is just shy of 9,000# actual curb weight.

Just make sure you get enough truck to pull as well as haul the trailer.

Ken
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:07 PM   #54
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Biron,

See my truck in the signature.

GVWR = 13,300#
GCWR = 30,000#
Front GAWR =5,250#
Rear GAWR = 9,000#

With the DRW in the F350 you get the 3.73 axle.

My truck loaded with fuel and tool boxes is just shy of 9,000# actual curb weight.

Just make sure you get enough truck to pull as well as haul the trailer.

Ken
I messed up, that 16,100 lbs was the max fifth wheel weight for the F350 SRW long box SuperCab, not the GCWR go figure. That is with a max Payload of 4,000 lbs outfitted with the max GVWR package on a long box SuperCab.

Which would do my deal with some to spare.

My 03 HD 2500 ram has a 20,000 GCWR
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:17 PM   #55
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Rusty loves his Ram Cummins trucks and while I do not love my Ford, I am very pleased with the truck and it's Ford predecessor.

I don't think you can go very wrong on any of the big 3 manufacturers now. Just get the one you like, the deal is right and it is rated to pull your trailer.

Ken
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:42 PM   #56
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Actually, Ken, I don't love inanimate objects - that would just be STRANGE!!

It is my towing vehicle of choice, however. YMMV.

Rusty
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