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Old 10-01-2016, 10:35 AM   #15
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We purchased a 05 F450 and the dealer built the box for us. The cab and chassis frame enabled us to put on a 8' box and the dealer added a 10" extension to the front where a 40 gallon aux fuel tank is installed.

With an 18,000 lb 5er we have a kingpin weight of 2645, rear axle weight of 4850 empty, 7495 with trailer, and an unused rear axle capacity of 4505. The truck has a GCWR of 33,000.
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Old 10-01-2016, 12:34 PM   #16
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Don't forget that there are two different F450 trucks. One's a premium 4x4 LWB F350. The F450 cab and chassis is more like the F550 and it can even still be bought with the old V-10 engine.

If I was going to be towing something seriously heavy, I'd be using a medium duty crewcab truck like a F650 or Freightliner with a custom RV bed.

If money is a serious issue, I'd be using a full size over the road truck that's been retired. I've seen them for as low as $25K to $30K that still have miles left. Most would have to have the rear axle removed as any RV won't need it.
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
Whats an MDT or HDT? Like an International truck with a 5th wheel bed?

I still want a pickup bed and 4x4
While a pickup bed can be installed on an MDT or HDT, it will be so tall that it will be nearly impossible to keep the fiver towing level. Most likely need a step ladder to reach the hitch. That is why hauler beds work better with taller trucks.
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Old 10-02-2016, 07:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald View Post
We purchased a 05 F450 and the dealer built the box for us. The cab and chassis frame enabled us to put on a 8' box and the dealer added a 10" extension to the front where a 40 gallon aux fuel tank is installed.

With an 18,000 lb 5er we have a kingpin weight of 2645, rear axle weight of 4850 empty, 7495 with trailer, and an unused rear axle capacity of 4505. The truck has a GCWR of 33,000.
That is an awfully light pin weight.. Have you ACTUALLY gotten all the weights. My 5er is loaded to 18,800#, has a pin weight of 4200#.

My 2016 Ram , long bed crew cab dually 4X4 with Aisin transmission and 4.10 has a GVWR of 14K, a RAWR of 9750# and a GCWR of 39,100#. Would I tow THAT heavy, NO, but I fall within all my weight ratings... That's what matters


Your weights don't sound right
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:09 PM   #19
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5000 lbs = 25k 5th wheel trailers pin weight....now add all the other weight that goes along with loads the truck will carry on its rear axle and your looking for a 4x4 crew cab truck with enough rear axle capacity to carry 6500 maybe 7000 lbs.

The F450 pickup bed truck has the same 9900 RAWR as the 350 DRW . Your facing a maxed out/over loaded truck.

I would look at the cab and chassis 450 Fords/4500 Rams with a nice looking haulers bed. These trucks have 12000 lb RAWR and can carry 8000 lb loads in the bed all day long

The F550 Ford with 13.5 to 14.5 RAWR for 10k-11k payloads
Same for the 5500 Ram cab & chassis.

Look for up fitters that install pickup beds on these size truck if you just have to have a pickup bed.
Or do some serious mods to the F450 rear suspension for more usable payloads.
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Old 10-02-2016, 10:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dayle1 View Post
While a pickup bed can be installed on an MDT or HDT, it will be so tall that it will be nearly impossible to keep the fiver towing level. Most likely need a step ladder to reach the hitch. That is why hauler beds work better with taller trucks.
Why would the deck of a pickup bed be that much higher? On my truck the structure for the bed lays right on the frame rails putting the deck only inches from the frame. Wouldn't a gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch be mounted at least level with the frame?

I have seen where some people have blocked the axles on a 5th wheel. One scenario that comes to mind is someone got a new truck that was taller so they blocked the axles to bring the trailer up level (plus added some height extra on one side as their trailer was supposedly leaning - which to me says they had an imbalanced load...). How high is too high? How does one take in to account for a MorRide set up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamaman View Post
Don't forget that there are two different F450 trucks. One's a premium 4x4 LWB F350. The F450 cab and chassis is more like the F550 and it can even still be bought with the old V-10 engine.

If I was going to be towing something seriously heavy, I'd be using a medium duty crewcab truck like a F650 or Freightliner with a custom RV bed.
I have seen a lot of gooseneck style "flat beds" that have a plate that slides over the gooseneck ball, essentially making a flat deck, minus the majority of the bed's I've seen being tapered down at the rear portion of the deck. that kind of set up seems like it wouldn't be too hard to turn in to an enclosed "bed". Does such a thing exist? What would the benefit of having no sides provide with a 5th wheel? As in - what would putting sides on that kind of bed be impeding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamaman View Post
If money is a serious issue, I'd be using a full size over the road truck that's been retired. I've seen them for as low as $25K to $30K that still have miles left. Most would have to have the rear axle removed as any RV won't need it.
I joined up over on the Escapees forums also and that seems to be a common suggestion. I am surprised with that. Insurance and registration might be an interesting endeavor, though that may be the case with an MDT as well though.

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5000 lbs = 25k 5th wheel trailers pin weight....now add all the other weight that goes along with loads the truck will carry on its rear axle and your looking for a 4x4 crew cab truck with enough rear axle capacity to carry 6500 maybe 7000 lbs.
What the rear axle rating is, to me, nearly irrelevant. You are correct, but my question originally was what truck can take that 5000lb range pin weight and pull in the 25,000lb gross trailer weight range. The truck weight and anything else in the truck is so much of a variable I am not very concerned with it. The bigger issue is the weight, strength of the chassis, and braking power of the truck. If the trailer brakes go can I control the rig? To that point - a 1 ton dually is a no-go. I don't care what the manufacturers claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post
The F450 pickup bed truck has the same 9900 RAWR as the 350 DRW . Your facing a maxed out/over loaded truck.

I would look at the cab and chassis 450 Fords/4500 Rams with a nice looking haulers bed. These trucks have 12000 lb RAWR and can carry 8000 lb loads in the bed all day long

The F550 Ford with 13.5 to 14.5 RAWR for 10k-11k payloads
Same for the 5500 Ram cab & chassis.

Look for up fitters that install pickup beds on these size truck if you just have to have a pickup bed.
Or do some serious mods to the F450 rear suspension for more usable payloads.
Good info on the 450/4500 class trucks. I really was not aware of that - but you're right. The 2017 charts for the Fords shows the F450 pickup less capable than the F350. I can't believe that. 10 bolt axles, lower gearing, beefier suspension, and less nads than the smaller truck? I think Ford needs to uncork their heads.

I am used to setting my truck on cruise now and having no trouble getting through hills loaded. That is why I drive a diesel. I know gas engines are still capable in the LDT realm for pulling loads (a lot of people are pulling lighter 5th wheels with gas duallys and SRW's), but there is something to be said for the ease of pulling a diesel brings to the game.

It looks like there are a lot of options for engines and gearing for MDT's. Is there a "benchmark" for hp, torque, and gearing to look for that will pull and not drop down to 30mph on a 6% grade with a large 5th wheel?
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Old 10-03-2016, 06:39 AM   #21
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One thing you will find with Ford's commercial cab and chassis is that the engine is derated. Same engine, same tranny, but lower HP and torque. Therefore they also have a lower tow rating. At the time we bought our 2012 F-550 delivery truck, it was only rated at 300 HP / 660 FP. I've never received a good answer for why they do it.
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
Why would the deck of a pickup bed be that much higher? On my truck the structure for the bed lays right on the frame rails putting the deck only inches from the frame. Wouldn't a gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch be mounted at least level with the frame?
The height of the deck is not the problem. The problem is the height of the bedsides. Pickup beds are about 19" from deck to top of the bedside. Hauler beds have no sides, or at most a few inches of side rails.

When turning sharp, you want 6" clearance between the bottom of the 5er overhang and the top of the bed sides. Then you can cross bumps and gullies and ditches without trailer contact with the top of the beside. So with a pickup bed, the kingpin must be about 25" above the deck. But with a hauler bed, the kingpin can be a lot closer to the deck and still maintain a level trailer.

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Old 10-05-2016, 10:50 PM   #23
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Wondering about that pin weight myself, and balance on the trailer--even seems low for a triple axle unit.
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Old 10-06-2016, 04:23 PM   #24
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20% of 25000lbs is 5000lbs. 25% of 25000lbs is 6250lbs. Generally 20-25% is the load distribution to the pin on a 5th wheel. Id say some custom rigs that are pulled behind semi tractors (class 8 truck, dual rear axles) could very well have a higher weight load on the pin - closer to 50%, still under though.
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Old 10-09-2016, 05:38 PM   #25
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Most overlook the pin and concentrate on the total weight. 5k pin will overload a 3500 dually easily. 9750# is max. Fuel, spare, bed, tools, all back there and anything else you throw in it. Extra fuel tank. Adds up quickly. They will easily tow the weight. All new trucks are very powerful. My solution is a Semi converted.
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Old 10-22-2016, 04:23 AM   #26
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Oh they're out there, but....

...what's in your wallet?? Sigh.
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:36 PM   #27
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I agree the F350 may be rated to pull that weight. My contention is that there is only so much rotor or drum you can pack into a 16 or 17 inch wheel. The weight of the truck is a Lightweight" at best. You have 25K of trailer an at best a 8K truck in front of it. Diesel exhaust brakes etc all help. But in a panic stop nothing about a 1 ton f350 stops that trailer. Someone somewhere will do something stupid. Going forward is one thing stopping is another. In my case my 4500 GMC weighs 11300 pounds with 19.5 inch wheels and tires. Everything is bigger and heavier and generally more capable of doing the job. For giggles go look at the rear end housing the pumpkin in a F350 or F450. Then go look at an International Sport Chassis or comparable medium duty. Everything is twice as big. Asking a F350 to pull that kind of weight is asking "a boy to do a mans job"

On a side note. I seen this happen. An rver got into an accident with his truck and 5th wheel. After the accident seen was cleared. The "insurance company" had the truck and trailer weighed. They denied his claim due to negligence of being grossly overloaded. They looked at Axle weight ratings more then the GCWR. Something to consider. This incident was in TN.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:35 PM   #28
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"On a side note. I seen this happen. An rver got into an accident with his truck and 5th wheel. After the accident seen was cleared. The "insurance company" had the truck and trailer weighed. They denied his claim due to negligence of being grossly overloaded. They looked at Axle weight ratings more then the GCWR. Something to consider. This incident was in TN."

Sorry, can't believe this anecdote without specifics--most ins cos would have to pay and then cancel. Truck? Trailer? "grossly overloaded" ?
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