Go Back   iRV2 Forums > TRAVEL TRAILER, 5th WHEEL & TRUCK CAMPER FORUMS > Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-03-2012, 09:22 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,079
Check the new weight weight carrying specs on the F450 as they have the same GVWR and 9000 RAWR as the F350 DRW. Ford really neutered the newer F450.
__________________

__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 Cummins HO 3.73 NV5600 Jacobs
'98 3500 DRW 454 4x4 4.10 crew cab
'97 Park Avanue RK 28' 2 slides
JIMNLIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-03-2012, 09:28 PM   #16
Moderator Emeritus
 
Vette Racer's Avatar


 
Oklahoma Boomers Club
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sand Springs, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,823
I don't usually get off road when towing but did have one instance where I got stuck in wet grass, wheels just sank in the front enough that the rear duals just spun on the grass and dug itself in. Had to use my Jeep to winch the whole mess out, it does happen, not often but it can.
__________________

__________________
Tom
KE5NCP
2016 Silver Ram 3500 CC Dually, 2011 HitchHiker DA 349 RSB, 2014 Wrangler unlimited Rubicon
Vette Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 10:31 AM   #17
Moderator Emeritus
 
K-Star's Avatar


 
Texas Boomers Club
Mid Atlantic Campers
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Fulltime - Currently somewhere in the lower 48
Posts: 2,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post
Check the new weight weight carrying specs on the F450 as they have the same GVWR and 9000 RAWR as the F350 DRW. Ford really neutered the F450
I agree that the F-450 has been neutered. I had an `08 that had GVWR of 14,500# and GCWR of 33,000#. On the other hand, the weight of my `08 F-450 was 10,600# loaded and ready to tow. My `12 F-450 is 9,300# loaded ready to tow. Another positive thing about the newer trucks is the price of replacing tires. The `07 -`10 used LR-G tires and cost me $2,700 to replace them. The newer model can tow the same trailer using LR-E tires. Much cheaper to replace.

Let me throw out some real world numbers.

At the scales my `12 F-450 (solo) weighs in at 9300# LRT. That said, the maximum GVWR trailer I can tow (assuming 20% pin weight) is 20,000#. That will take me to the 13,300 GVWR of the truck. So much for the 24,400# trailer.
__________________
John, Joyce & Zoie the Terrier. - Fulltime since `08

2017 Solitude by Grand Design
2012 Ford F-450 Lariat
K-Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 09:05 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
wingnut60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wherever the Suites is
Posts: 2,982
Well, if you want to go strictly by the numbers--the 2013 F450 has a GVWR of 14000, that is very close to the '08-'10 14500 rating.
It will be interesting to eventually see if the new ones' running gear holds up to that of the older models.
I certainly agree that it is a LOT cheaper to replace the 17" tires than the 19.5" tires, and probably easier to balance. But wear...?
Joe
__________________
'15 38RSSA Mobile Suites
'05 36TK3 Mobile Suites--retired but not forgotten
'17 F450--trying one more Ford
'09 F450--died, replaced with '10--retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 04:01 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXiceman View Post
It is not all about the tow ratings as noted by ralphie. You have to also look at the trucks rear axle GAWR and the trucks GVWR. A 3/4 ton truck will exceed the GVWR long before you reach the 16,000# tow rating for 5th wheel. So it is a two part equation.

Ken
Not actually the case with the today's trucks. The 2012 Ford F-250 SRW 2WD trucks have a rated 5th wheel towing capacity of 16,300 lbs. and this only drops by 200 lbs. with 4WD. The 2012 F-250 4WD SRW has a 5th wheel towing capacity of 16,100.

The F-450 has a lower payload rating though a higher tow rating than the F-350. Most of the gain with the F-450 is from the 4.30 rear end and is of value only if the trailer is going to weigh more than 21,500 lbs. wet.

I know people pulling horse trailers with DRW trucks but all the ones pulling 5th-wheels are using 3/4 ton SRW trucks so as to have a more practical truck for day to day use when not towing the trailer.
__________________
elkhornsun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 07:29 PM   #20
Moderator Emeritus
 
TXiceman's Avatar


 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Texas Boomers Club
Oklahoma Boomers Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Full Time, TX Home Base
Posts: 17,150
Blog Entries: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhornsun View Post
Not actually the case with the today's trucks. The 2012 Ford F-250 SRW 2WD trucks have a rated 5th wheel towing capacity of 16,300 lbs. and this only drops by 200 lbs. with 4WD. The 2012 F-250 4WD SRW has a 5th wheel towing capacity of 16,100.

The F-450 has a lower payload rating though a higher tow rating than the F-350. Most of the gain with the F-450 is from the 4.30 rear end and is of value only if the trailer is going to weigh more than 21,500 lbs. wet.

I know people pulling horse trailers with DRW trucks but all the ones pulling 5th-wheels are using 3/4 ton SRW trucks so as to have a more practical truck for day to day use when not towing the trailer.
You still do not understand the ratings. If you have a 16,300# 5er it will have a pin weight of about 3260#. That is a lot of weight to add to a 3/4 ton truck. Take the truck loaded curb weight and subtract this from the trucks GVWR. You will not have have 3260# capacity.

Read the footnotes about you are to to exceed GCWR, GAWR or GVWR when towing.

Yes you see people pulling large 5er with 3/4 ton truck and they are for a large part over their ratings. So get all of the facts before you tell some one to go ahead with a 3/4 ton truck.

ken
__________________
Amateur Radio Operator (KE5DFR)|Full-Time! - 2012 6.7L Ford Crew Cab Dually -2013 HitchHiker Champagne 38RLRSB - Travel with one Standard Schnauzer and one small Timneh African Gray Parrot
TXiceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 10:02 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
tuffr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Palm Coast Florida
Posts: 2,457
I have seen a Redwood FL 5er that is 40 feet long being pulled by a 2011 SRW F-350. This is just one example as I have probably seen (same as everyone else) many other examples of SRW trucks 3/4 and 1 ton towing trailers that they should not be towing. The new engines have the power to pull but like has been mentioned 1,000 times here before - none of the trucks weight ratings should be exceeded.

What states are real picky about the ratings? The big Redwood was being towed back to Pa. from Fl. So round trip had to be 2,300 miles.

Those SRW trucks sure look better than their bigger DRW brothers.
__________________
tuffr2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:55 AM   #22
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6mm View Post
Can someone show me how to figure what size truck I will need to buy when towing a 5er.
Please show me an example on how I need to figure what a truck can tow and hitch weight it can handle.
There are two weight ratings you need to be concerned with:
1) Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
2) Gross combined weight rating (GCWR)

Pickups with single rear wheels (SRW) are almost always limited by GVWR. The GVWR determines how much hitch weight you can haul without being overloaded.

Example: 2013 Ford F-250 diesel CrewCab with 8' bed
The GVWR is 10,000. Subtract the wet and loaded weight of the pickup and the difference is the maximum hitch weight you can haul. Ignore the empty weights published by the manufacturers and go by actual CAT scale weights reported by owners. For the above F-250 with people, pets, options, tools, full tank of fuel, 5er hitch installed, and "stuff", the wet and loaded weight will be about 8,500 to 9,000 pounds. If you're one of those that weighs 9,000 pounds, that leaves only 1,000 pounds for hitch weight before you're overloaded. With 20% hitch weight, a wet and loaded toy hauler couldn't have hitch weight (or "pin" weight) more than 5,000 pounds. Nobody makes 5er toy haulers that light.

Example 2: Move up to the F-350 SRW, and the GVWR goes up to 11,500 pounds. With a 9,000 pound wet and loaded truck, you have 2,500 pounds available for max hitch weight. So the max 5er weight you could tow without exceeding the GVWR of the truck is 12,500 pounds. That's a nice but smaller toy hauler.

So if you want an SRW pickup, then you must limit the GVWR of the toy hauler to 12,500 pounds.

Example 3: F-350 DRW and F-450 pickup have a GVWR of 14,000 pounds, and the weight goes up almost 500 pounds. So figure 9,500 pounds wet and loaded truck weight. That's 4,500 pounds available for hitch weight, or a max trailer weight of 22,500 pounds.

With the SRW trucks, you can ignore the GCWR because you'll run out of GVWR before you hit the GCWR. But with the duallies, you can also figure the GCWR limits and see it they apply to you. In example 3, the max combined weight is 9,500 truck plus 22,500 trailer = 32000 combined. So your truck needs at least 32,000 GCWR to tow that 22,500 trailer. The F-350 DRW has a GCWR of 30,500, so it cannot tow that trailer without exceeding the GCWR. So the limiter is GCWR on the F-350 DRW. 30,500 GCWR minus 9,500 truck weight = 21,000 max trailer weight.

But the F-450 has a GCWR of 33,000, so it can tow that trailer that weighs 22,500 without exceeding either the GVWR of GCWR of the tow vehicle.

Example 4: Your dream trailer has a GVWR more than 22,500? Ford doesn't make a factory pickup that can tow it without being overloaded. But they make the F-450 and F-550 chassis cab that can be outfitted to make it a wonderful tow vehicle. The F-450 chassis cab has a higher GVWR but a lower GCWR than the F-450 pickup. So let's ignore that one and move up to the F-550.

The F-550 chassis cab has the same cab as the F-350 DRW. If you add a pickup bed, it will look almost exactly like an F-350 DRW pickup, except for the slightly bigger tires and wheels and the F-550 badge. Max hitch weight is around 7,500 pounds, and with the right options, GCWR is 35,000 pounds. So max trailer weight without being overloaded is about 25,000 pounds.

With the chassis cab, you can have whatever kind of bed you want added by a "ship thru outfitter". Your Ford dealer can show you the various upfitters that will add a pickup bed, a hauler bed, a flat bed, or a special low-sided commercial bed called the Knapheide Westerner Storage Body, which provides safe secure storage plus towing ability in a low-profile body. If I were designing a tow body, this would be very close to perfect.
Westerner Storage Bodies | Knapheide

Quote:
I have a Travel Trailer now and it tows very bad in any wind or when cars and trucks pass and want something that will tow without the white knuckle towing.
With the right hitch, a TT will tow as good as any 5er. But the right hitch is over $2,000, so most folks go for a cheaper setup, and then complain about white-knuckle driving. . There are three of these good TT hitches: PullRite, Hensley Arrow, and the newer ProPride 3P. I'm saving for a ProPride 3P:
Trailer Sway Control Hitch Guaranteed to Eliminate Trailer Sway - ProPride 3P
__________________
Grumpy ole man with over 50 years towing experience. Now my heaviest trailer is a 7,000-pound enclosed cargo trailer, RV is a 5,600 pound Skyline Nomad Joey 196S, and my tow vehicle is a 2012 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost SuperCrew.
SmokeyWren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:15 AM   #23
Moderator Emeritus
 
RustyJC's Avatar


 
Texas Boomers Club
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Cypress, Texas USA
Posts: 8,854
On the same Ram ratings sheet that gives the manufacturer's trailer tow rating are the following footnotes:

Quote:
2. Maximum trailer weights are rounded to the nearest 50 lbs.
Maximum Trailer Weight = GCWR - Curb Weight - 150 lbs. (allowance for driver)
3. ......Additionally, the GAWRs and the GVWRs should never be exceeded.
I strongly suspect that the Ford and GM ratings sheets have similar language.

It seems that all too many individuals want to stop at the Maximum Trailer Weight number without reading ALL the conditions that apply to it.

Rusty
__________________
2016 Ram Longhorn 3500 Dually 4x4 CCLB, 385/900 Cummins, Aisin AS69RC, 4.10
2014.5 DRV Mobile Suites 38RSSA #6972
Come join us on a TEXAS BOOMERS rally!
RustyJC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 06:03 PM   #24
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
It seems that all too many individuals want to stop at the Maximum Trailer Weight number without reading ALL the conditions that apply to it.
Yeah, I was one of those back in 1999 when I ordered a new SuperDuty diesel. The "tow rating" was over 13,000 pounds, so I assumed I could tow an 8,000 pound 5er with no danger of getting even close to the limits. Bad ass-u-me. That pickup could PULL a 5er that weighed over 13,000 pounds without overloading anything. But it couldn't haul the hitch weight of that 8,000-pound 5er without being overloaded over the GVWR of the pickup. On the road with my wet and loaded 5er that grossed about 8,000 pounds, I was overloaded over the GVWR of the F-250 by several hundred pounds. So my F-250 diesel had enough guts to pull my 8,000-pound trailer, but not enough suspension to haul the hitch weight of that trailer without exceeding the GVWR of the pickup.

Back then, the GVWR of the F-250 SuperDuty diesel was 8,800 pounds. But my wet and loaded pickup weighed about 8,000 before I backed up to the 5er, leaving only 800 pounds max hitch weight without being overloaded. Well, too late now. I towed that 5er all over the country while being overloaded as much as 800 to 900 pounds over the GVWR of the pickup.

So I've been "preaching" ever since, trying to warn others to not make the same mistake I did.
__________________
Grumpy ole man with over 50 years towing experience. Now my heaviest trailer is a 7,000-pound enclosed cargo trailer, RV is a 5,600 pound Skyline Nomad Joey 196S, and my tow vehicle is a 2012 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost SuperCrew.
SmokeyWren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 07:49 PM   #25
Moderator Emeritus
 
TXiceman's Avatar


 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Texas Boomers Club
Oklahoma Boomers Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Full Time, TX Home Base
Posts: 17,150
Blog Entries: 21
Smokey, for reference, my 2012 F350 CC DRW XLT (2-wheel drive) with 20K hitch, tool box, full fuel and me and the copilot rolls across the scales at 8810# per the Cat scales...wet loaded and ready to tow. The GCWR is 30000# and the GVWR is 13300#.

I think we all started out on the wrong foot, but we did not have the benefit of the Internet. Problem with the Internet, is that anyone can get on there and say any thing. Even the ones that are pulling 40' 5er with their 3/4 ton trucks and are "doing just fine". Anyone with 1/2 of a brain should be willing to listen to the ones with the experience and knowledge and learn from them, rather than repeat their mistakes.

So, understand the tow ratings and the simple calculations and put your mind at ease.

I guarantee that towing with a properly match tow vehicle is sure a lot more fun than trying to get by with a badly matched rig. Out trailer is currently a bit over 15000# and the truck easily handles it; no fighting it on the wind, hoping you can make it up the hill, not overheating problems and you arrive fresh and fit to go.

The right tools makes a job so much easier.

Ken
__________________
Amateur Radio Operator (KE5DFR)|Full-Time! - 2012 6.7L Ford Crew Cab Dually -2013 HitchHiker Champagne 38RLRSB - Travel with one Standard Schnauzer and one small Timneh African Gray Parrot
TXiceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:27 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
On the same Ram ratings sheet that gives the manufacturer's trailer tow rating are the following footnotes:



I strongly suspect that the Ford and GM ratings sheets have similar language.

It seems that all too many individuals want to stop at the Maximum Trailer Weight number without reading ALL the conditions that apply to it.

Rusty
The GM online ordering guide website has a weight calculator. It figures all weights of the options and gives the tow rating for that particular truck. It may be a loaded 3500 DRW LTZ or a 3500 DRW work truck. Both have a different tow rating.

Looking at Fords fleet service spec sheets and GM weight calculator its possible to overload the trucks RAWR by using GVWR numbers to figure a payload, mostly in the gas engine models and those big GVWR numbers. Remember the GAWR have changed little to none in the last several years but GVWR have really gone up. Some GAWRS are within a couple of hundred lbs of the GVWR.
As was mentioned all truck manufactures tell us not to exceed the GVWR and the GAWRs (not just GVWR as some folks push).

One poster on another RV website with a F150 HD and I believe the 8200 GVWR package with the 4800 RAWR was 400 lbs over his RAWR but under the truck GVWR. He had his actual scaled axle load numbers.

The GM 11200 GVWR 3500 SRW gas 2wd extended cab LTZ trucks shows a 4440 lb payload. Most trucks that size may have rear unladin axle weight in the 2900 lbs range. Now add GMs 4440 lb payload number and 2900 lb rear axle weight = 7340 lbs on a 7050 RAWR.

Some of the 11500 GVWR F350 SRW Fords with the gas engine 6890-7000 lb RAWR have similar rear axle overload specs.

A payload figured from GVWR goes on the trucks front and rear axles.

This wasn't a issue when 3/4 ton trucks had 8600 GVWR and SRW had 9xxx GVWR. At some point LDT makers may have GVWR = the sum of the GAWRs.
__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 Cummins HO 3.73 NV5600 Jacobs
'98 3500 DRW 454 4x4 4.10 crew cab
'97 Park Avanue RK 28' 2 slides
JIMNLIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:40 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kitts Hill, OH
Posts: 1,863
Others have covered the Specs of the Fine Ford trucks all too well.
I'll just add this. If what you want to tag along falls into the specs of a F-350, I'd by a F-450 because it will last longer than a F-350 moveing the same load.

I have a old 89 F-superduty(F450) and years ago Have had 12K of iron castings on the bed. It just rode nice, It in fact had another couple inches of suspension left.
__________________
(RVM#26) THE U-RV 94 F-700/24 foot U-haul box home built RV
Mekanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 05:51 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
wingnut60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wherever the Suites is
Posts: 2,982
The GM 3500 SRW rear axle rating = the sum of the tire max load ratings...not sure about Fords, but it sure can't be higher than the tire ratings.
Joe
__________________

__________________
'15 38RSSA Mobile Suites
'05 36TK3 Mobile Suites--retired but not forgotten
'17 F450--trying one more Ford
'09 F450--died, replaced with '10--retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.