Go Back   iRV2 Forums > TRAVEL TRAILER, 5th WHEEL & TRUCK CAMPER FORUMS > Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-18-2013, 09:22 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9
Upgrade to TV - Thoughts???

I have a 2001 Tundra towing a 5,500 TT. I haven't weighed this yet but by the time the family, gear, wood, etc. I assume that it is pulling between 7 - 7.5K. The truck is rated to pull 7.2K so I know that I am at the limits.

I am looking to upgrade to either a new 1/2 ton or a 3/4 ton diesel. The 3/4 ton diesel seems to be overkill but it looks like I can get a 3 or 4 year old diesel for cheaper than a newer half ton.

Here are my questions:

1. Can you have "Too much truck?" Our current trips are 3 - 4 hours at most on flat ground but I would like to make a few 12 hour trips a year if I had a TV capable.

2. Is diesel overkill? I was thinking it would keep my options open for the future for 5er or more weight.

I'd appreciate all of your thoughts on this subject.
__________________

__________________
Mjwitte00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-18-2013, 10:08 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
tuffr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Palm Coast Florida
Posts: 2,457
My thoughts - diesel trucks are really designed to tow. They are much better at towing campers.

If I could buy a 3 - 4 year old diesel for the same $$$ as a new gas truck I would advise buying the diesel.

Now your 2001 Tundra solo drives like a big car but a diesel truck will also drive nice. Especially one only 3 years old. If you can stay no older than 2011 all the trucks diesel trucks were updated that year. Ford and Chevy spruced up their engines. Chevy also beefed up their frame. Ram also did some redesign work.

2011 Chevy and Ford require DEF (deisel exhaust fluid) The 2011 Ram does not.
I have a Ford. The DEF fluid last a long time and so far not an big deal.

'Can you have too much truck'? A 3/4 ton will not be too much truck for a camping TT weighing 7,000lbs.

But a 3/4 ton truck is not enough truck to tow most 5th wheels. A 5th wheel is different ballgame. They will put a lot of weight 2,500 to 3,000 lbs. pin weight onto the truck bed. A 3/4 ton truck really can not haul that much weight.

Typically smaller 30' to 34' 5th wheels can be towed with SRW (single rear wheel) 1 ton trucks. Larger than 35' probably need a DRW (dual rear wheel) truck.

That is a huge jump from a 2001 car like Tundra.
__________________

__________________
tuffr2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 01:12 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,207
I towed our last TT (7300lbs loaded) with a 2010 F150 5.4 maxtow 3.73's. Yes the 5.4 is doggy but it did have a 6sp that really keeps things going. However I traded that truck in on a 12 Ram CTD 2500. Overkill, maybe. But nothing like having enough truck for the job. I live in Oregon and we have hills/mtns everywhere. So a gasser is constantly revving up and down. That's just their nature. We have moved up to a 9000lb 5'er and the CTD hauls it beautifully. Nice easy relaxing tow. I will never go back to a gasser to tow unless I'm at 6000lbs or less. I like having enough truck to feel like the truck is in control of things. On our last trip (1400+miles) my wife even commented on how quiet and smooth the diesel tows compared to our F150. And she hardly notices anything
__________________
Cumminsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 05:04 AM   #4
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjwitte00 View Post
1. Can you have "Too much truck?" Our current trips are 3 - 4 hours at most on flat ground but I would like to make a few 12 hour trips a year if I had a TV capable.
A class 8 heavy duty truck (HDT) would be too much truck for any RV trailer that has a GVWR less than 20,000 pounds. A class 6 or 7 medium-duty truck (MDT) would be too much truck for any RV trailer that has GVWR less than about 10,000 pounds.

But I'll bet your Tundra is overloaded with a 7,000-pound TT. By overloaded, I mean your gross vehicle weight (GVW) on the 4 tires of the Tundra exceeds the GVWR of your pickup. My 2012 F-150 4x2 SuperCrew is slightly overloaded with my TT that grosses only 4,780 pounds.

Quote:
2. Is diesel overkill? I was thinking it would keep my options open for the future for 5er or more weight.
An F-250 or GM/Ram 2500 diesel doesn't have much more payload capacity for hitch weight that a half-ton. So most 250/2500 diesel pickups towing a fifth wheel RV trailer are overloaded. They have plenty of GCWR (power/torque/frame strength) to tow the load, but not enough GVWR (suspension, axle, tires/wheels) to haul the hitch weight without being overloaded. Way back before the 2005 model year, my F-250 diesel CrewCab long bed 4x2 was overloaded with my 5er that had a GVWR of only 7,900 pounds. Same truck but 4x4 had 400 pounds less payload capacity (because GVWR stays the same, but the 4x4 weighs about 400 pounds more than 4x2), so they couldn't tow even the lightest-weight 5er without being overloaded. 2005-up F-250 diesel can handle that trailer without being overloaded, but not much more.

So if you buy a 2005-up diesel pickup, skip the 250/2500 and go to at least the 350/3500 with single rear wheels (SRW).

2011-up F-250 with the excellent Ford diesel engine has GVWR of 10,000 pounds. Typical CrewCab 4x4 will gross about 8,500 (or more) before you tie onto the trailer. So that leaves only 1,500 pounds for max pin weight. Smaller (less than 30') full-profile 5ers have pin weight of about 17 to 20 percent of gross trailer weight. So if your 5er has 20 percent pin weight, then any 5er with GVWR over 7,500 pounds will overload that F-250. Do some shopping and you won't find many 5ers available with GVWR less than 7,500 pounds.

But 2011-up F-350 SRW has GVWR of 11,500. 11,500 minus 8,500 pounds for a lightly-loaded F-350 SRW = 3,000 pounds max pin weight without being overloaded. 3,000 pounds pin weight is a 5er with GVWR of up to 15,000 pounds. A 40' toy hauler will overload that pickup, but most 5ers of about 30' or so will have GVWR less than 15k. If possible, I like to load my tow vehicles to no more than 85% of capacity, so that would be a 5er with GVWR of up to 12,750 pounds. There are all sorts of desirable 5ers available with GVWR of around 12,000 pounds. So the '11-up F-350 SRW diesel (or equivalent GM or Ram) would be a good choice for your next tow vehicle, and certainly wouldn't be "too much truck".
__________________
Grumpy ole man with over 50 years towing experience. Now my heaviest trailer is a 7,000-pound enclosed cargo trailer, RV is a 5,600 pound Skyline Nomad Joey 196S, and my tow vehicle is a 2012 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost SuperCrew.
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 02:00 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,207
Plenty of 3/4 ton trucks have enough capacity. Just look for one that is lightly configured. With 2 people in the truck a 3/4 ton can easily tow a 10-12,000 5th wheel. All 3/4 ton trucks have RAWR of 6000lbs or more. Empty rear axle weights are 2750-2900lbs on average. That leaves you with 3000lbs+ for carrying capacity. A 12,000lb 5'er should have a 2400lb pin weight. That's 600+lbs under the RAWR. Only difference on 2500-3500 is the rear spring pack.
__________________
Cumminsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 05:45 PM   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
K-Star's Avatar


 
Texas Boomers Club
Mid Atlantic Campers
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Fulltime - Currently somewhere in the lower 48
Posts: 2,215
and there ya go!
__________________
John, Joyce & Zoie the Terrier. - Fulltime since `08

2017 Solitude by Grand Design
2012 Ford F-450 Lariat
K-Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 06:19 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Yuma, AZ for now
Posts: 88
"A class 8 heavy duty truck (HDT) would be too much truck for any RV trailer that has a GVWR less than 20,000 pounds" ....

I know we're splittin' hairs here, but my 700K miles HDT doesn't care if I'm towing 30K pounds or 15K pounds (really 19K), but entering into the conversation should be cost. A used HDT is cost effective at any weight, MPG towing is the same as my 3500 Dodge, maintenance so far is less than the Dodge (200K miles), cost was waaaay less than the Dodge. Too much truck for me....don't think so.

Regards
Gemstone
__________________
'06 Elite Suites, '95 KW, '06 Deuce, '04 Low Rider
Gemstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 07:33 PM   #8
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cumminsfan View Post
Plenty of 3/4 ton trucks have enough capacity. Just look for one that is lightly configured. With 2 people in the truck a 3/4 ton can easily tow a 10-12,000 5th wheel. All 3/4 ton trucks have RAWR of 6000lbs or more. Empty rear axle weights are 2750-2900lbs on average. That leaves you with 3000lbs+ for carrying capacity. A 12,000lb 5'er should have a 2400lb pin weight. That's 600+lbs under the RAWR. Only difference on 2500-3500 is the rear spring pack.
You continue to ignore the GVWR of the tow vehicle. All tow vehicle manufacturers state that you should never exceed either the GVWR or GCWR of the tow vehicle.

On a lot of three-quarter-ton pickups, you cannot get close to the RGAWR without exceeding the GVWR. It doesn't matter how much the RGAWR is if you can't use it without exceeding the GVWR.
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 09:04 PM   #9
Moderator Emeritus
 
TXiceman's Avatar


 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Texas Boomers Club
Oklahoma Boomers Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Full Time, TX Home Base
Posts: 17,150
Blog Entries: 21
A nice diesel truck rated for the GVWR and GCWR would work great. A diesel was meant to work. The 1/2 ton trucks are very light weight tow machines and grocery getters.

Ken
__________________
Amateur Radio Operator (KE5DFR)|Full-Time! - 2012 6.7L Ford Crew Cab Dually -2013 HitchHiker Champagne 38RLRSB - Travel with one Standard Schnauzer and one small Timneh African Gray Parrot
TXiceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 09:49 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
jimcumminsw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Oswego IL
Posts: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
You continue to ignore the GVWR of the tow vehicle. All tow vehicle manufacturers state that you should never exceed either the GVWR or GCWR of the tow vehicle.

On a lot of three-quarter-ton pickups, you cannot get close to the RGAWR without exceeding the GVWR. It doesn't matter how much the RGAWR is if you can't use it without exceeding the GVWR.

SmokeyWren; I tend to use the Ram Body Builders. com website for my information; not opinions on truck capabilities. So this information is from that site which I would say has to be clear by the engineering department before publication. I also used the 2011 Ram trucks since the OP is looking at a three to four year old diesel truck to buy for comparison.

From this site the 2500 LB Crew Cab SLT with 4:10 gears, 4X4, 68RFE auto, 6.7L Cummins has a GVW of 9,600LBS with a GCVW rating of 22,000LBS and a GARW rear of 6,010 LBS and a max trailer towing capability of 14,950 LBS.

The 3500 Ram SRW truck is a LB Crew Cab SLT also. The truck also has the 4:10 gears, 4X4, 68RFE auto; 6.7L Cummins has a GVW of 10,100LBS, with a GCVW of 24,000LBS and a GARW rear of 6,500LBS and a max trailer towing capability of 16,500 LBS.

You do notice that there is only a 500 LB difference between the trucks GVW rating. The only difference between the two SRW trucks is one leaf spring in the spring pack for the 3500 model.

So in my humble engineering opinion the 2500 Ram is capably of towing most 5er’s, not the full timer models but most of the lighter weight 5er’s built for a nice two or three week trip. I know my truck can and is capable of pulling my 318SAB Cougar (34.9 FT) 5th wheel trailer.

Jim W.
__________________
Jim & Jill
Sold: 2010 318SAB Cougar:New: 2016 Cedar Creek 34RL. 2008 Dodge 6.7LCummins the original 6.7L engine, w/68RFE Auto
jimcumminsw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 05:42 PM   #11
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
If you think you can ignore the GVWR of the tow vehicle, then you would flunk the PE in chassis engineering in most states.
__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 09:16 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
jimcumminsw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Oswego IL
Posts: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
If you think you can ignore the GVWR of the tow vehicle, then you would flunk the PE in chassis engineering in most states.
Are you stating that the Ram design engineers do not know what they are doing? It is the engineering team who provides the Ram Body Builders Guide for up-fitters and other to get the proper engineering data on the Ram trucks. I have attached the link to the PDF down loadable document for your review, so you can correct them.


http://www.rambodybuilder.com/year.pdf


Now we all know that the maximum GCVW should not be exceeded (at least most of us); so you take the GCVW rating –Curb WT of the truck -150 LBS operator (SAE 90% operator guide line) = the maximum trailer weight that can be towed.


So if you take the 22,000 (GCVW) – 6,910 (curb weight round down to nearest 10 lbs) – 150 LB operator = 14,940 Trailer wt. I would change this weight of trailer to allow additional operator and passengers weight and then add in the hitch weight and some additional gear. So my curb weight would be 7410 and a total of at least 350 LBS for operator and one passenger. So this would then be 22,000 LBS -7410 LBS-350 LBS = 14,240 Maximum Trailer Weight. Which most of us can use as a guide line to find the correct size for a 5th wheel trailer.


Jim W.
__________________
Jim & Jill
Sold: 2010 318SAB Cougar:New: 2016 Cedar Creek 34RL. 2008 Dodge 6.7LCummins the original 6.7L engine, w/68RFE Auto
jimcumminsw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 11:04 AM   #13
Moderator Emeritus
 
SmokeyWren's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Midland County, Texas
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimcumminsw View Post
Are you stating that the Ram design engineers do not know what they are doing?
No, the engineers know exactly what they are doing. But if you ignore the GVWR of the tow vehicle those engineers gave you, you are ignoring one of the primary factors required to match tow vehicle to trailer. Those engineers give you the GVWR as well as all the other engineering data required to properly match truck to trailer without being overloaded. And they state very clearly in the towing and hauling guides that you should NEVER exceed any of the weight limits of the TV, including the GVWR.

But GVWR is the first weight limit most owners will bump up against, so that's the one they want to ignore. The folks that ignore the GVWR of the tow vehicle are the ones that apparently believe the manufacturer's design engineers don't know what they are doing.
__________________

__________________
SmokeyWren is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.