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Old 07-25-2012, 09:57 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
Staying within the manufacturer's ratings, if one elects to do so, involves ALL the ratings - GVWR, GCWR, front GAWR and rear GAWR. One cannot look at only one rating and ignore the rest, and I don't believe I've seen anyone advocating conforming to GVWR and ignoring GAWRs. It's a "both/and", not an "either/or" approach. Generally, though, since GVWR has been significantly lower than the sum of the GAWRs, it's been the limiting factor among the manufacturer's ratings for SRW trucks. Your own situation illustrates this - under rear GAWR, but over GVWR.

Rusty
I'm more concerned with load carrying safety and not being a illegal operator so I choose to use my trucks RAWR/tire capacities for figuring my trucks hitch loads/payloads.
With a GN or 5th wheel trailer the trucks front axle changes little to none so its not a player in carrying any of the hitch loads.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberframe View Post
Seeing how this is my first time shopping for a truck to use for a fifth wheel trailer, I have to say it is very confusing. I know the previous owner of this trailer pulled it with a Chevy Silverado 3/4 ton. But I dont know if he was within the limits of all the different wieght limits. I told my wife that if we dont find a truck pretty soon, we will have to go camping in the dealers parking lot where the trailer currently sits. I think he has free doughnuts and coffee though. Ha-ha
You will have no problems pulling the 12k 5th wheel trailer with a '05-'08 2500 Dmax/A. Nor will the truck have any issue carrying the trailers pin weight. That size trailer doesn't need a one ton unless you just want one. I would talk with the previous owner if possible and see if he had any issues pulling with his 2500 truck.

The only difference in a 2500 GM truck with the diesel option and a 3500 SRW truck with the diesel options is higer rated wheels/tires and another spring in the main spring pack. Both trucks share the same frame/front axle and the same AAM 11.5" rear axle/brake specs and the same engine/tranny.
You may want to consider the 3500 SRW as some owners say it rides like the 2500. Both trucks are the same truck so the SRW will fit where ever the 2500 will go.

A short bed or a long bed will also work. One isn't better than the other. If you want a long bed then get one. If you want a short bed then I would get one. You don't have to get what other folks like.

Generally short bed trucks require a sliding hitch of some type.
The short bed GM truck has a longer dimenision between the back of the cab to the trucks rear axle. This gives the truck a sharper turning radius. Thats why many GM owners report not having to use their sliding hitch or don't have one. Much depends on the trailers front corner profile.
Your RV dealer can show you how that works.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:41 AM   #31
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Buy the DRW diesel crew cab. You will be glad you did. You will learn to drive it very soon and will not have to buy another truck if you decide to upgrade. A DRW will fit in any standard parking spot. Good luck and enjoy. I prefer the cummins. But that's a personal thing. All the diesel motors are making about the same power. I just prefer to replace 6 parts rather than 8
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post
...You will have no problems pulling the 12k 5th wheel trailer with a '05-'08 2500 Dmax/A. Nor will the truck have any issue carrying the trailers pin weight...
You might not have any "problems" but you will exceed the GVWR of the truck mentioned. Using the standard formula of 20% of the RV's GVWR for PW, the PW alone will put you over weight, not counting passengers, the weight of the hitch itself, cargo and all the other "stuff" we like to carry. One of the newer model trucks, with the greatly increased carrying capacity might be okay, not a 2005 - 2008 model. To get the carrying capacity of your truck, check the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left side of the frame on the driver's side. It will give you the cargo capacity to the nearest one pound.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Cat320 View Post
You might not have any "problems" but you will exceed the GVWR of the truck mentioned. Using the standard formula of 20% of the RV's GVWR for PW, the PW alone will put you over weight, not counting passengers, the weight of the hitch itself, cargo and all the other "stuff" we like to carry. One of the newer model trucks, with the greatly increased carrying capacity might be okay, not a 2005 - 2008 model. To get the carrying capacity of your truck, check the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left side of the frame on the driver's side. It will give you the cargo capacity to the nearest one pound.
Once again exceeding the manufactures GVWR isn't illegal. Exceeding the trucks GAWRs/tire capacities is.

Our replies seam to be getting are reduntive.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMNLIN View Post
Once again exceeding the manufactures GVWR isn't illegal. Exceeding the trucks GAWRs/tire capacities is.
.
This is the case currently for commercial vehicles. I have not seen them weighing and enforcing weight laws in the USA on RVers.

In any case, the manufacturers engineers are well paid and well qualified. The manufacturers ratings state that none of the ratings... GVWR, GAWR or GCWR are not to be exceeded. As was explained earlier, it a __ and __ and ___ scenario, not an either or issue. You do not get to choose which one of the limits you choose to follow or ignore.

I am getting tired of plowing the same ground.

Ken
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:11 PM   #35
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I also agree that the weight limits set by trucks used to haul rvs has been determined by people a heck of a lot smarter than me. It seems to be a simple decision to make but there are some people who consistantly want to bend the rules when it comes to weight allowances. Use a little common sense folks and try to listen to the advice given by knowledgeable people on this forum. When I see a truck pulling an rv that is obviously to big, the following image pops into my head as I try to put distance between myself and them.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TXiceman View Post
This is the case currently for commercial vehicles. I have not seen them weighing and enforcing weight laws in the USA on RVers.

In any case, the manufacturers engineers are well paid and well qualified. The manufacturers ratings state that none of the ratings... GVWR, GAWR or GCWR are not to be exceeded. As was explained earlier, it a __ and __ and ___ scenario, not an either or issue. You do not get to choose which one of the limits you choose to follow or ignore.

I am getting tired of plowing the same ground.

Ken
My comment wasn't aimed at commercial vehicles, So why bring it up.

All vehicles on the road come under some type of weight regulations.

I'll post this again. It comes from a RV.net member. The answer comes from a California commerecial enforcement commander;
************************************************** *************


"This is in response to your electronic mail dated October 14, 2009.
First, allow me to apologize for the untimely response to your e-mail.
My staff recently received your request and by the date of your e-mail,
it appears to have been lost in the system. You were requesting
information pertaining to state laws limiting the gross vehicle weight
rating (GVWR) and/or gross combined weight rating (GCWR) for fifth wheel
and recreational vehicle owners. I have answered each of your questions
in the order asked.
Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
Section 21715(b) CVC prohibits a motor vehicle under 4,000 pounds
unladen from towing any vehicle weighing 6,000 pounds or more gross
weight. This section would apply to smaller pickups and Sport Utility
Vehicles attempting to tow large trailers.
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.
Section 24002(a) CVC prohibits a vehicle or combination of vehicles
which is in an unsafe condition or which is not safely loaded and which
presents an immediate safety hazard from operating on the highway. This
section provides officers the authority to stop a vehicle or combination
of vehicles that is, in the officer’s opinion, unsafe to operate on
the highway. This section could be used to prohibit a driver from
continuing until the unsafe condition is fixed.
Q: “If they were to have an accident would they be cited?”
A: The officer investigating the collision would make the
determination whether to cite the driver based on evidence collected
during the investigation and the determination of the cause of the
collision.
Q: “Would their insurance company pay damages?”
A: Please contact your insurance company to obtain damage claim
information.
I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.

Sincerely,

S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMNLIN
My comment wasn't aimed at commercial vehicles, So why bring it up.

All vehicles on the road come under some type of weight regulations.

I'll post this again. It comes from a RV.net member. The answer comes from a California commerecial enforcement commander;
************************************************** *************

"This is in response to your electronic mail dated October 14, 2009.
First, allow me to apologize for the untimely response to your e-mail.
My staff recently received your request and by the date of your e-mail,
it appears to have been lost in the system. You were requesting
information pertaining to state laws limiting the gross vehicle weight
rating (GVWR) and/or gross combined weight rating (GCWR) for fifth wheel
and recreational vehicle owners. I have answered each of your questions
in the order asked.
Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
Section 21715(b) CVC prohibits a motor vehicle under 4,000 pounds
unladen from towing any vehicle weighing 6,000 pounds or more gross
weight. This section would apply to smaller pickups and Sport Utility
Vehicles attempting to tow large trailers.
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.
Section 24002(a) CVC prohibits a vehicle or combination of vehicles
which is in an unsafe condition or which is not safely loaded and which
presents an immediate safety hazard from operating on the highway. This
section provides officers the authority to stop a vehicle or combination
of vehicles that is, in the officer’s opinion, unsafe to operate on
the highway. This section could be used to prohibit a driver from
continuing until the unsafe condition is fixed.
Q: “If they were to have an accident would they be cited?”
A: The officer investigating the collision would make the
determination whether to cite the driver based on evidence collected
during the investigation and the determination of the cause of the
collision.
Q: “Would their insurance company pay damages?”
A: Please contact your insurance company to obtain damage claim
information.
I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.

Sincerely,

S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"
If you read the statute's, these can not be enforced on a private vehicle as they fall under commercial vehicle enforcement law.

Example 1: Maryland requires a non commercial class license for many rigs above 10k #s but if you are not a resident, you can not be cited for this infraction.

Example 2: Would you receive a ticket for failing to wear a helmet on a motorcycle if you were driving a car?? No you would not, as that statute is provided for motorcycles and not cars.

Same goes for commercial vehicles. If you have a commercial truck or DOT numbers, those statutes for state and federal will apply to you. If not, then those specific statutes can not be applied.

This is not releasing liability in any means. If you a grossly negligent than there are other charges than can be pursued. But asking commercial vehicle enforcement laws about private vehicles is like asking them to tell you elements of a domestic violence arrest. They are experts in what they do but have limited knowledge on private vehicle laws as their training emphasizes commercial vehicles. As such, most states, they cant even stip you. And in those states they can stop you, most have to wait for a regular trooper before proceeding as they dont have the authority. Some states CVE are not in any relation to the troopers but rather a state DOT enforcement mechanism with limited powers.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:31 PM   #38
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the drivers door sticker is marked with the tire data and the gawr for the front and rear axles of that particular truck, and the gvwr of that truck. The gcwr is not found anywhere on the truck, it is usually in the owners manual. If you exceed the markings on the door sticker, you leave yourself open to not only enforcement issues, but also liability issues. Not so sure about the gcwr, because it more generic. Not saying that they all shouldn't be followed, just food for thought.
Frank
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:39 PM   #39
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Kinda' like wrestling a pig in the mud....after awhile you realize the pig is enjoying it. Think I'll go take a shower.

Ken
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Old 07-28-2012, 05:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franka548 View Post
Not so sure about the gcwr, because it more generic.
Whereas GVWR and GAWRs are related to a truck's ability to CARRY a load, GCWR is a function of its ability to PULL a load. In fact, the manufacturer's trailer tow rating is computed as GCWR minus the manufacturer's curb weight of the base model truck with a 150 lb driver.

GCWR drives the required cooling capacity (engine coolant, lube oil, transmission fluid, axle hypoid gear lube, etc.), driveline torque capabilities, ability to maintain speed on grade and so forth for the design engineers. The truck will be tested at maximum GCWR ratings to ensure that nothing overheats or breaks - we would see these trucks being tested regularly by the manufacturers dragging absurd towing loads in the Davis Mountains of West Texas in the middle of summer.

Much earlier in this thread, I asked the OP a question that was never answered to my knowledge. That question, in effect, was "Are you wanting to tow within the manufacturer's ratings?" Let me rephrase that for the situation at hand. If one were starting from scratch to size and select a tow vehicle to pull an RV (TT or 5th wheel), why NOT select one that has been rated by the manufacturer for ALL aspects of the towing service the vehicle will be performing - what it will be carrying as well as what it will be pulling?

It's up to each individual - do you want to tow within the manufacturer's ratings or not? If you do, then the formulas, calculations and advice many of us have been offering will get you there. If you don't, then hitch up whatever you want to that 40' 5th wheel and "Git er done!!" (or at least try to....)

Rusty
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Old 07-28-2012, 09:04 AM   #41
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Any 3/4 ton truck will pull your camper, the problem is can you get it slowed down in a panic situation? I just sold my 07 Duramax 3/4 cc SRW and got a 2011 Duramax DRW. No more worries about braking when pulling a 12 K fiver.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #42
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Rusty,
It seems that most of the people that post on these weight rating posts are divided into two general groups. Those that follow the weight ratings are usually the dually guys, although that is not always the case, there are a few srw guys in there also, and those that swear that a dually is overkill, and it is not needed. I would guess that most of those that are dead set against a dually have never pulled with one. Just my obsevation.
Frank
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