Fuel economy when pulling a hybrid.

[Superslif]

if you're still wandering about mpg with towing a pop up, I had a 2004 viking 1906st (about 2200lbs) pulled by a 2003 mitsubishi montero sport 2wd 3.0 V6.

That was about the same results we got from our 99' Toyota 4-Runner 3.4L V-6 pulling at 2000 dry Coleman pop-up. (16 mpg towing / 20-22 mpg non-towing)

[bubbajean]

Maybe I am wrong but....

.....we tow a lot out west at high altitudes and elevations. So power and towing ability are a real concern. Our Hybrid weighs about 3,800 lbs. all loaded up. We tow it with a 2012 Grand Cherokee with the Hemi-360 hp engine and 6 speed auto transmission. The G.C. has a tow capacity of 7,400 lbs. What a joke. Well maybe across Illinois on a flat interstate.

Fact is the G.C. does fine with the 3,800 lb. Hybrid. One hardly knows that is is back there until the big hills arrive or a stong headwind occurs. Then she works pretty hard. In the mountains....it does the job. But often in 3rd gear or even 2nd with rmp of 4,000 plus.

I cannot imagine towing something that weighs over 7,000 lbs. with that vehicle. I cannot imagine towing a 3,500 hybrid with a minivan or any tow vehicle rated for 3,500 lbs.

Before we bought our G.C. an experienced RV'r told me....get a tow vehicle with double the capacity that you want to tow. We did that and i am convinced that he was correct.

Oh sure....you can do it with a lot less. But you better stay on flat land or understand that your vehicle will not hold up long term. Maybe if you just go to the local park a few times each year then one could get by. But we tow about 15,000 miles each year.

As for gas milage. The G.C. gets 20 mph on the highway clean. About 9 miles to the gallon when towing. 7 or 8 mpg with a headwind or in the mountains.

have fun.

bob

[bikendan]

many choose to tow with a barely adequate vehicle and are fine because they live in areas without mountains, such as Florida or Iowa.
but the first time they get in mountains, with grades and altitude, they quickly regret not having a capable tow vehicle.
since we live out West, we rarely can get around without lots of hills or mountains, so an overly capable tow vehicle is a must.

[Superslif]

I did take a quick look at a Dodge Durango (Hemi-V-8)...but then again the shorter wheelbase of that size SUV will tax your towing capacity. So I went with a new Tundra 5.7L

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by bubbajean

Maybe I am wrong but....

.....we tow a lot out west at high altitudes and elevations. So power and towing ability are a real concern. Our Hybrid weighs about 3,800 lbs. all loaded up. We tow it with a 2012 Grand Cherokee with the Hemi-360 hp engine and 6 speed auto transmission. The G.C. has a tow capacity of 7,400 lbs. What a joke. Well maybe across Illinois on a flat interstate.

Fact is the G.C. does fine with the 3,800 lb. Hybrid. One hardly knows that is is back there until the big hills arrive or a stong headwind occurs. Then she works pretty hard. In the mountains....it does the job. But often in 3rd gear or even 2nd with rmp of 4,000 plus.

I cannot imagine towing something that weighs over 7,000 lbs. with that vehicle. I cannot imagine towing a 3,500 hybrid with a minivan or any tow vehicle rated for 3,500 lbs.

Before we bought our G.C. an experienced RV'r toluh ud me....get a tow vehicle with double the capacity that you want to tow. We did that and i am convinced that he was correct.

Oh sure....you can do it with a lot less. But you better stay on flat land or understand that your vehicle will not hold up long term. Maybe if you just go to the local park a few times each year then one could get by. But we tow about 15,000 miles each year.

As for gas milage. The G.C. gets 20 mph on the highway clean. About 9 miles to the gallon when towing. 7 or 8 mpg with a headwind or in the mountains.

have fun.

bob

Wow! That's a real surprise for me....I couldn't imagine Chrysler screwed JGC to this extent, it's built on ML platform. I assumed they are interchangeable vehicles and Jeep has a better hitch receiver. What's the rear end ratio of the Jeep? Gear ratios??? I understand that Hemi is quite low tech and peaky in spite of fancy name. I have a 6 banger with dohc and vvt, but very linear, with max torque from 2400 to 5000, backed by 7g-tronic and 3.9 rear end. On 5-6% interstate grades it struggles no more than an airplane during takeoff while pulling 5800 lb, never went below 4th gear, returning 55-60mph and 10-11 mpg in most cases. Miniscule design details create a world of difference. It would be nice to know how how 2014 Jeep is doing with ZF 8 speed...

[BigBaron]

You can get a popup for a lot less than an HTT, and get one that is big enough for your family to grow. There are a lot of good deals out there.
I would not pull anything bigger than an old "canned ham" type trailer behind a minivan.
My pup is close to 3,000 lbs. with our van and it's comfortable, but I wouldn't pull anything much bigger, which is why we didn't get a popup with a slide.
You'll like the mileage a lot more, too.

[Superslif]

Here is a Youtube website ( The Fast Lane Truck) testing different trucks pulling trailers up and down a Colorado mountain pass. They look at RPM's, Speed, time and brake temperatures as they test. They have about 160 videos comparing different vehicles towing up the same course.

Also to note: Toyota is the only brand to sign on to the SAE ( Society of Automotive Engineers ) J2807 towing standard. All the manufacturers agreed to the new standard, but Toyota has been the only one to be compliant since 2010 on all their vehicles. Here is a video talking about just that subject. (

Unsafe to tow? magic towing dust

)

[bubbajean]

Originally Posted by RGene7001

Wow! That's a real surprise for me....I couldn't imagine Chrysler screwed JGC to this extent, it's built on ML platform. I assumed they are interchangeable vehicles and Jeep has a better hitch receiver. What's the rear end ratio of the Jeep? Gear ratios??? I understand that Hemi is quite low tech and peaky in spite of fancy name. I have a 6 banger with dohc and vvt, but very linear, with max torque from 2400 to 5000, backed by 7g-tronic and 3.9 rear end. On 5-6% interstate grades it struggles no more than an airplane during takeoff while pulling 5800 lb, never went below 4th gear, returning 55-60mph and 10-11 mpg in most cases. Miniscule design details create a world of difference. It would be nice to know how how 2014 Jeep is doing with ZF 8 speed...

Gene,

Out of fairness to the Grand Cherokee it is loaded with enormous power and is more than adequate for our little hybrid. In the midwest she pulls our hybrid at interstate speeds effortlessly. With a strong headwind , up long steep grades, or at high altitudes however the gas engine must develope high RPM to produce the power. Downshifting is a constant when towing in the mountains. I simply intended to suggest that it is unimaginable to me that the vehicle could actually tow a 7,400 lb. trailer at high altitudes and up steep grades without pulling it's guts out. Of course the stated towing ability does not define the altitude, gradient, temp. etc. And yes...the Hemi goes back to my childhood of the 1960s. Old technology for sure.

Maybe I expect something that is not realistic. Perhaps if a vehicle will tow a load of 7,400 lbs, at 25 mph, up a mountain, in first gear then it meets it's promise. Frankly I think our G.C. would to that. However I don't think that is what most folks have in mind when they compare towing ability.

We have owned some qualtity automobiles but frankly the G.C. is perhaps the finest vehicle we have ever purchased. She compares favorably with BMW, Lincoln, Lexus, Mercedes. Our G.C. is one terrific vehicle. And yes...it is a holdover from Mercedes ownership. But the fact remains that she is geared for economy, not towing. The gear ratios are too high. Desperately needs a gear between 3rd and 4th and between 4th and 5th. I would imagine that the 2014, eight speed transmission would be a major improvement. Indeed the diesel model will most likely turn out to be a terrific tow vehicle. But I am not a fan of diesels..all things considered.

I will tell you this. Like everyone else,we see hundreds of tow vehicles as we travel around the nation. We have only seen one other Grand Cherokee among the bunch. Also two BMWS and two Mercedes like yours. Must tell us something.

Truth is....the only real tow vehicle, for other than for very light campers, is some varity of a pickup truck. But with 6 vehicles already under licence and with no other need for a full size pickup .....we just didn't want a dedicated tow vehicle....a large pickup truck.

Your vehicle sounds incredible. But I would love to see her towing 7,400 lbs. over a 10,000 ft. mountain, or up an 8% grade at 8,000 ft. elevation, when loaded to the gills. If she can do that without breathing hard....then I am going to be very, very impressed.

Blue Skies and a tailwind always.

Bob

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by bubbajean

Your vehicle sounds incredible. But I would love to see her towing 7,400 lbs. over a 10,000 ft. mountain, or up an 8% grade at 8,000 ft. elevation, when loaded to the gills. If she can do that without breathing hard....then I am going to be very, very impressed.

Blue Skies and a tailwind always.

Bob

Bob,
Nothing in the world will give you a breezy performance in such circumstances. Fortunately, such mountains are three days away from me and I am unlikely to travel there until happy retirement in about 25 years. What will be the price for a gallon of Premium or diesel in this bright future?? You can read article Tips Driving an RV on Extreme Mountain Grades on the Home page on this forum. A nice, apparently not cheap class A could go only 9mph up 18% grade. On 10000 feet I will have only 190 hp down from 268 at the sea level. But having 190hp for 10800lb combination is still much better than 430hp for 52000lb motorhome and toad, so I would expect to go at least 25mph at the second gear. Overheating is a possibility, but not a likely one because Germans over engineer things both for reliability as well as to provide sustained Autobahn performance at full power. In the past I was quite confused trying to locate conventional transmission cooler in the ML, but in fact there is an oil-to-water intercooler inside the massive main radiator for 25 times better heat exchange compared to oil-to-air. So far, neither Florida heat, nor upstate NY mountains could move water temp gauge north of 90C (same as solo).
7400lb of towing capacity may not be very meaningful, unless determined in accordance with SAE J2807 protocol and it is no more than ability to tow 7400lb utility trailer with gravel or sand. TT gives front aerodynamic resistance at highway speed in addition to weight and this is a real thing, unlike that obscure "80% safety rule".
On the flip side, you may connect 2000lb heavier trailer to your Jeep and be surprised how little your performance will change, especially if this trailer is more aerodynamic. Unlike popups, hybrids push a lot of air and don't have rounded fronts in most cases. (I spotted one 2013(?) JGC with 31 foot Passport Elite once, but did not have chance to talk to the owner)
I had a lot of advises to get a real truck prior to buying an RV, did a lot of research prior to pulling the trigger, was blessed and "cleared" by Andy Thomson for any road on the Continent and here I am. I am strongly convinced that going to a 1/2 ton truck will be a step back, not forward. I came across too many people having all sorts of problems with them from insufficient payload and performance to violent sway. The reasons for the problems are outdated engine and transmission designs, mushy suspensions, long rear overhangs and so on. They got much better lately, however. Heavy duty diesel trucks are another story but really long one will be not only outside of our lifestyle and tastes but, more importantly, outside of our garage, driveway and ultimately our gated community which prohibits long vehicles.
I may get one eventually, but definitely not for the Passport...

[bikendan]

sounds like you've drank some of the Can-Am Kool-Aid!

[Superslif]

Yes, hybrids push a lot of air. I'll loose 1-2 mpg. between driving 58 mph and 65 mph. Having the 05' Toyota 4Runner (V-8) for 9 seasons pulling two different 24' - 25' hybrids I took the plunge and ordered a 2014 Tundra.

The 4Runner was a good combination tow vehicle and daily driver. Even at 9 years old it still had a very smooth ride. Never had a truck before which I will hope I can put to good use.

We are planning a 2016 Alaska trip and knew I didn't want to take a 11 or 12 year old vehicle up there. Was going to sell the 4Runner myself, but they offered me 14k as a trade. Had to order the Tundra to get the factory tow mirrors. Hope to get it the first week in Dec. I'm hoping my gas mileage will stay the same....(11-12mpg) here is to hoping hopefully it will be

[BigBaron]

Originally Posted by bikendan

sounds like you've drank some of the Can-Am Kool-Aid!

You said it, not me... :ROFL:

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by bikendan

sounds like you've drank some of the Can-Am Kool-Aid!

You are mistaken about "Kool-Aid" part.
"Rational prediction requires theory and builds knowledge through systematic revision and extension of theory based on comparison of prediction with observation. ... It is an extension of application that discloses inadequacy of a theory, and need for revision, or even new theory. Again, without theory, there is nothing to revise. Without theory, experience has no meaning. Without theory, one has no questions to ask. Hence without theory, there is no learning." W. Deming

[BigBaron]

Tell the tranny shop or the liability lawyer(s) about that theory...
I'll stick with common sense and experience. Just be safe out there!