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Old 09-12-2015, 08:19 PM   #1
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Anyone have experience with Seismic 4212 or Winnebago Scorpion?

So went to the first show of the season (for us anyway) and walked through a Winnie Scorpion TH. I was surprised, I actually liked it, and it felt pretty solid compared to most.

However, the show was very limited on TH, so we hit up two dealers near by. At the first dealer we looked at Grand Design, Voltage, and Cyclone. We really liked Voltage, and there was a '15 model for $59k. Love the Cyclone, but staying away from 'Heartless' since my buddies 9 month old 5er BH has had both AC units go out. The service guy told them Heartless is 6 or 9 months behind on paying him for repair work.

Second dealer had a Raptor and a Jayco Seismic 4212. We really fell in love with the Jayco (much to our surprise). Plus the two year warranty seems like a big bonus.

So, just curious if anyone has owned a Jayco Seismic, or Winnebago Scorpion?

Edit: I just realized the Winnie is a first year brand new model. So while that would worry me, with the Winnie name, it doesn't bother me as much.

Thanks,

Mike
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Old 09-13-2015, 09:43 AM   #2
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I've seen the Jayco 4212, 4112, and 4250...and like you I was impressed as well. The only thing was the leveling system is electric vs the better hydraulic system. With that said Jayco has raised their game up which will make other companies raise their game to keep up. I've seen the Scorpion too...and time will tell. We shopped for over a year and you just have find a floor plan that suits you. We stayed away from anything Heartland makes as well with all the QC issues. The Voltage which I loved when we first started shopping has the same if not more QC issues. Voltage owners won't necessarily tell you that because they're too embarrassed to admit they over spent on a piece of crap...and I talked to many Voltage owners. Even with all the Voltage problems I still almost bought one. It wasn't until I talked to my nephew who is a service manager for large nationwide RV dealer and as he told me they have more Voltage and Cyclone's in for repairs than all of the others combined....but again the Voltage and Cyclone are the top sellers as well...for now...but that will change.
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Old 09-13-2015, 04:19 PM   #3
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I was just reading on another site that Jayco apparently replaced a lot of the leveling control boards. Apparently, they got a "bad run". Also for the 2016 models they redesigned something that reportedly solves some of the voltage drop issues. I'll find more info and post a more detailed response later.

Apparently Jayco engineers felt that electric leveling is a better option than hydraulic. The prevailing thought is when a hydraulic system fails while deployed it can't be manually retracted, whereas, an electric system can be manually retracted/deployed when faced with a system failure. I can neither confirm nor deny the validity of that. However, the electric leveling system does seem to have the vast majority of complaints, and I could find little else. Oh there were a few posts about a blackout window shade not rolling up correctly.
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Old 09-14-2015, 06:37 AM   #4
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Mike, I'm with Dave on the hydraulic leveling preference. It's a MUCH better system than electric and the actual reason Jayco hasn't gone hydraulic is cost. Jayco is a great product though. They just grabbed an important asset from Heartland too. Mike Aplin is now running Jayco's toy hauler division. He's a really good guy who knows the industry forward and back. He will bring them up to speed in short order but at this point, they are still a bit behind the rest of the brands in features and options.

I also agree to stay away from the Cyclone/Road Warrior twins as well as Voltage. The Heartland units are just rolling out too fast at 25+ units a day to have any QC. Voltage has been smoke and mirrors since day one and it is biting them now. They are running very low numbers and still putting out a flawed product. Their management is also the most arrogant in the industry.

Take at look at my brand, XLR Thunderbolt when you get a minute. They have more standards and options than many other brands and stand behind their units like you wouldn't believe. I've personally met the folks running the show there and wouldn't buy from anyone else based on my experience...
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:00 PM   #5
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Not to be contrary, but define "better"? I've been reading everything I can find and better seems to be opinion without empiric data to actually back up the position.

Hydraulic Systems
Pros
- Stronger (maybe 5 years ago, not so sure now)

Cons
- Fluid reservoir must be maintained
- Seals that must eventually be replaced
- Leaks = pollution
- Failure while deployed prevents retracting? Perhaps, just a very difficult retraction.
- Dependent on electrical power to operate

Electric Systems
Pros
- Lower maintenance (no fluid reservoir, seals, etc)
- Easier to retract in case of failure while deployed
- No possible pollutants

Cons
- Dependent on electric power for operation. Weak power, or voltage drop inhibits system
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Old 09-15-2015, 06:10 AM   #6
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Better = Much faster, stronger (each individual leg is rated to 8000 lbs!), and way more reliable. Try and find examples of your cons happening. Leaking, failure, and even maintenance are rare. Hydraulic rams are used on EVERYTHING, not just in the RV industry. They are a proven quantity. Imagine an electric ram on an agricultural tractor? A trash truck? In the million applications used in ship's hydraulics? I can give you endless examples of hydraulic rams being used. Not so much for electric.

Bottom line is,electric is just a cheap, push by alternative that is generally found on less expensive RV's. One hydraulic leg retails at almost $700. Then you need another and a pump for almost $2k. The entire front electric system with both side legs and the motor is under $700 so you can see, it's a price based decision on Jayco's part.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:35 PM   #7
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I have zero experience with electric levelers, but both RVs that I've bought (HWH levelers) had issues. Electronics power the pumps for the hydraulic systems. No debate on which one is stronger.

After these issues, my preference is for NO auto-leveler system.. They're heavy, complicated, and prone to issues...

But that's my opinion...
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:03 PM   #8
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I have zero experience with electric levelers, but both RVs that I've bought (HWH levelers) had issues. Electronics power the pumps for the hydraulic systems. No debate on which one is stronger.

After these issues, my preference is for NO auto-leveler system.. They're heavy, complicated, and prone to issues...

But that's my opinion...
LOL, you better just stay home and hide in your basement. Technology is real scary...
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:01 AM   #9
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Anyone have experience with Seismic 4212 or Winnebago Scorpion?

We really like the Jayco Seismic but after finding out it had the electric leveling system and reading the reviews I didn't consider it any more. Maybe it's a good system but not what I wanted. Too slow and looked like a pain to operate, to me it's just outdated. Beautiful toy hauler and we really liked the inside but the electric leveling system was a deal breaker for me. If it had not been for the leveling system it would have been in our top two or three choices for sure.
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Old 09-19-2015, 11:25 AM   #10
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I bet you see Jayco switch over within a year or so. With Mike Aplin at the helm, you'll see a lot of changes in the near future.

PS: I apologize for my flip response to cb1000rider. It just seemed kind of a "sky is falling" kind of post on a proven system. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion...
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Old 09-19-2015, 01:48 PM   #11
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So never having owned a camper, TT, motor home, 5er, etc this may seem like a dumb question to everyone else. How often do you camp somewhere that isn't fairly level, where an electric leveling system would be a problem? Also another potentially dumb question, but if I were camping and one corner was lower could I use a 6"x6", 4"x4", or other type of block to even it up?

I guess the problem for me is Jayco is head and shoulders our number 1 pick. Grand Design is our #2.
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:09 PM   #12
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Mike, I'd take electric over nothing any day of the week. Yes, you could use blocks to level your rig. People have been doing it for years including myself. However, it's a real pain and the wife and I have had more arguments over leveling than any other camping related stresser. As to how often you need to level, it's every time. However, the benefit is beyond leveling. It's also stabilizing. Tires and suspension allow the trailer to shake, rock, and roll as you move around in it. Having six points of contact is so much more stable than two. I actually had XLR add an electric stabilizer in the very rear even though I have the 6 point Level Up system. 8 points of contact makes the rig rock solid!

All this said, if you love the Jayco, don't let the electric scare you off and if you really found it to be sub par in the future, you could add the Big Foot six point hydraulic setup later.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taken View Post
I bet you see Jayco switch over within a year or so. With Mike Aplin at the helm, you'll see a lot of changes in the near future.

PS: I apologize for my flip response to cb1000rider. It just seemed kind of a "sky is falling" kind of post on a proven system. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

I bet you're right, I think they'll switch also. I wasn't thrilled when we looked at it and found out it had the electric leveling system but I was still open minded. I went home and went to a Jayco forum and started reading the complaints and that did it for me. But, saying that, it's easy to justify not buy anything particular brand if you're just reading complaints on the internet.

If it was really my number one choice I still would consider it though. I would want to see it operate before making a final decision. It may work great, I'm really not knowledgeable enough about it to make any real suggestions since I've never used it. My Momentum 385 is our first 5th wheel with auto leveling and excited to get to use it. Leveling without it isn't difficult but just a pain. I forgot to do it once before unhitching, that's when I really wished that I had it and one reason for getting a newer one.
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Old 09-19-2015, 11:00 PM   #14
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LOL, you better just stay home and hide in your basement. Technology is real scary...

FYI: I work in Technology for a living. I'm not a cave-dwelling curmudgeon. Most of the time... But your follow up post is appreciated.

The fact is that adding features makes failure more likely. I'm not saying that auto-levelers aren't a great feature that are very valuable to some people, but I AM indicating that both hydraulic leveling systems that I owned had failures. Not the end of the world, but I was done with them after that. Both systems were years old, so they served someone well (in all fairness).

One system ran around $150 to fix (parts only) - pump - the other HWH system, near $500 to fix (parts only) as their hydraulic rams aren't designed to be serviced. After that, I was done...
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