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Old 01-21-2012, 12:09 PM   #1
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Looking at toyhaulers

I retired in April, 2011 and am new at this. We have never owned a camper and need input. We are looking for toy haulers and need input from toy hauler owners. We want to make a good decision since we will be traveling about four months or more per year. We have looked at Voltage, Fusion, and Cyclones. Any feed back would be appreciated on these or others we should maybe look at.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:27 AM   #2
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Hi amxguy. Welcome to the forum. With what are you planning on pulling your 5ver? What kind of toys are you taking along? I'm sure some of our toy hauler folks will be giving you the benefit of their experience soon.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:34 AM   #3
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Howdy AMXGuy and welcome to the forum. Good luck in the search and congrats on the retirement.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:40 AM   #4
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Welcome to the forum amxguy. Hope you enjoy your retirement and your future travels down the road. Good luck in the search for that new rig. Be safe and Happy Motoring!!!!
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:11 PM   #5
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Hi folks! Welcome to IRV2! Happy to have you with us! Good luck & God bless!
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:16 PM   #6
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I'll be pulling with a 2000 F350 diesel dually. My toys are a 2003 Harley Electaglide Classic and a 2008 Goldwing trike with trailer.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:20 PM   #7
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The biggest mistake most toy hauler buyers make is buying too much trailer for their tow vehicle (TV), but after investing in the trailer they're too broke to upgrade their TV. So they wind up overloaded.

To prevent that from happening to you, determine the GVWR and GCWR of your tow vehicle. The GVWR will be on the door sticker that includes the VIN and tire info. The GCWR will either be in the Owner's Guide or Towing Guide. Then fill it with family, friends, pets, tools, floor jack, hitch parts that will be in/on the TV when towing, and other stuff that will usually be in the TV when towing the toy hauler. Then go to a truckstop that has a CAT scale. Fill up with fuel, then weigh the wet and loaded TV including driver and all the other folks and stuff.

Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded TV from the GVWR of the TV to determine max hitch weight you can have without being overloaded. Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded TV from the GCWR to determine the max weight of any trailer you can tow without being overloaded.

If the trailer is a travel trailer (TT, bumper pull), divide the max hitch weight you can have by 12 percent to determine the max weight of any TT you can tow without being overloaded.

Most wet and loaded tow haulers will have a hitch of about 17 or 18 percent of gross trailer weight. So divide the max hitch weight you can have by 18 percent to determine the max weight of any 5er toy hauler you can tow without being too much trailer for your TV.

On TVs with single rear wheels (SRW), the limiter is usually the GVWR of the TV. On TVs with dual rear wheels, the limiter is usually the GCWR. Figure both ways, then use the number that results in the lighter trailer.

Don't try to guess at the trailer weight. Use the GVWR of the trailer as the wet and loaded trailer weight for purposes of matching trailer to TV, and you'll usually be close to the real world. Some trailer manufacturers don't include the GVWR of the trailer in their specs. In that case, add the shipping weight or "dry" weight to the cargo capacity to get GVWR of the trailer.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amxguy View Post
I'll be pulling with a 2000 F350 diesel dually.
I was posting at the same time as you. Here's some numbers for your TV:

GVWR = 11,200

GCWR = 20,000

Your truck will weigh about 8,500 to 9,000 when wet and loaded for the road. If you use 8,500, that leaves 2,700 pounds for max hitch weight. 2,700 divided by 18% = 15,000 if GVWR is your limiter.

But in your case, GVWR is not your limiter. Your GCWR is 20,000, minus 8,500 for the wet and loaded TV = 11,500. So your max trailer weight is 11,500.

Looking at Fusion specs, all of the 5ers are too much trailer for your TV. Fusion has two travel trailer toy haulers that will work for you with wet and loaded weights less than 11,500. Models 260 with GVWR of 11,290, and model 295 with GVWR of 11,400.
Keystone Fuzion | Specs

Ford significantly increased the GVWR and GCWR of the 2005-'10 diesel pickups. 2005-'10 F-350 DRW has a GVWR of 13,000 pounds, and GCWR of 23,500. The trucks are heavier, so use 9,000 as the wet and loaded weight of your truck. That leaves a max hitch weight of 4,000 and a max trailer weight of 14,500. So if you trade up to a 2005 or newer F-350 DRW, you can tow the biggest TT Fusions, models 300 or 301, without being overloaded. But the lightest Fusion 5er toy hauler has a wet and loaded weight of 16,500. So you cannot tow it with an F-350 DRW before 2011 model year without being overloaded, unless the truck has the Tow Boss pkg.

For 2008 thru 2010 model years, Ford offered a "Tow Boss" pkg for F-350 DRW which raised the GCWR to 26,000 pounds. Those are rare, but if you find a used one that will probably be enuff truck for your Fusion 5er. Otherwise, if you want to tow a Fusion toy hauler 5er without being overloaded, you need a 2008.5-up F-450 pickup, or a 2011-up F-350 DRW.
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
I was posting at the same time as you. Here's some numbers for your TV:

GVWR = 11,200

GCWR = 20,000

Your truck will weigh about 8,500 to 9,000 when wet and loaded for the road. If you use 8,500, that leaves 2,700 pounds for max hitch weight. 2,700 divided by 18% = 15,000 if GVWR is your limiter.

But in your case, GVWR is not your limiter. Your GCWR is 20,000, minus 8,500 for the wet and loaded TV = 11,500. So your max trailer weight is 11,500.

Looking at Fusion specs, all of the 5ers are too much trailer for your TV. Fusion has two travel trailer toy haulers that will work for you with wet and loaded weights less than 11,500. Models 260 with GVWR of 11,290, and model 295 with GVWR of 11,400.
Keystone Fuzion | Specs

Ford significantly increased the GVWR and GCWR of the 2005-'10 diesel pickups. 2005-'10 F-350 DRW has a GVWR of 13,000 pounds, and GCWR of 23,500. The trucks are heavier, so use 9,000 as the wet and loaded weight of your truck. That leaves a max hitch weight of 4,000 and a max trailer weight of 14,500. So if you trade up to a 2005 or newer F-350 DRW, you can tow the biggest TT Fusions, models 300 or 301, without being overloaded. But the lightest Fusion 5er toy hauler has a wet and loaded weight of 16,500. So you cannot tow it with an F-350 DRW before 2011 model year without being overloaded, unless the truck has the Tow Boss pkg.

For 2008 thru 2010 model years, Ford offered a "Tow Boss" pkg for F-350 DRW which raised the GCWR to 26,000 pounds. Those are rare, but if you find a used one that will probably be enuff truck for your Fusion 5er. Otherwise, if you want to tow a Fusion toy hauler 5er without being overloaded, you need a 2008.5-up F-450 pickup, or a 2011-up F-350 DRW.
Can you help up determine the largest tow for our truck which is so confusing. We have 1999 F350 7.3L Super Crew 4 X 4 single wheel not a dually.
The door tag states FRONT GAWR 5500 REAR GAWR 6000 GVWR-9900. Owners manual did not provide info for 7.3L diesel. In the 1999 Ford RV & Trailer towing guide on page 16 the chart states the MLTW is 13,100 GCWR is 20,000 AXLE RATIO 3.73. Then on page 13 there is graph with a title stating maximum trailer weights (in pounds) for Properly Equipped Ford Vehicles (with no cargo). When you look at graph bar titled F-Series Pick-up Fifth Wheel it states 14,600 pounds. I am so confused. It also talks about Frontal Area Consideration & Tongue Weight. I have seen people mention pin weight on this site. What is that. We looked at a new KING Cyclone CY 4100 and dealer guy was telling us 7.3L engines could pull it with no problem.
I cant remember the weight but it was heavy. 16,000 plus ???
I like the Endurmax 3912END, Voltage 3795, Cyclone CY4100 Toy Haulers. Also looked at nice Redwood 5th Wheel not a TH. I will have to look up models & get weight.
But after reading what you wrote above, we may need to upgrade truck? Or get lighter 5th wheel instead of toy hauler.
Any help appreciated.
http://www.hillerford.com/resource_l...wing_guide.pdf
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXDIANIMAL View Post
Can you help up determine the largest tow for our truck which is so confusing. We have 1999 F350 7.3L Super Crew 4 X 4 single wheel not a dually.
The door tag states FRONT GAWR 5500 REAR GAWR 6000 GVWR-9900. Owners manual did not provide info for 7.3L diesel.
Ignore all the various weight ratings other than GVWR And GCWR. With a GVWR of 9,900, that's probably your limiter.

Quote:
In the 1999 Ford RV & Trailer towing guide on page 16 the chart states the MLTW is 13,100 GCWR is 20,000 AXLE RATIO 3.73. Then on page 13 there is graph with a title stating maximum trailer weights (in pounds) for Properly Equipped Ford Vehicles (with no cargo). When you look at graph bar titled F-Series Pick-up Fifth Wheel it states 14,600 pounds. I am so confused.
I can't blame you for being confused. All the motor vehicle companies exaggerate the payload and tow rating by assuming a naked, empty tow vehicle. But nobody tows with a naked, empty tow vehicle, so you'll probably never reach the "maximum" numbers they spout.

Your '99 F-350 DRW diesel has a GVWR of 9,900 and a GCWR of 23,000. Those are hard numbers you can believe.

Load the truck with the stuff and people that will normally be in it when on the road towing any trailer. For a 5er, include the 5er hitch. For a TT, include the heavy shank and ball mount from your weight-distributing hitch. Include all tools, extra fluids, jacks, pets, coolers, whatever will probably be in the truck when towing. Go to a truckstop that has a CAT scale, fill up with fuel, and weigh the wet and loaded truck (without a trailer).

Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded truck from 9,900 and the answer is the max hitch weight you can have without exceeding the GVWR of the truck.

Divide that available payload left for hitch weight by 12 percent to get an estimate of the maximim GVWR of any TT you can tow without exceeding the GVWR of your tow vehicle.

Divide that available payload by 18 percent to get a good estimate of the maximum GVWR of any 5er you can tow without being overloaded.

Example: Your wet and loaded truck weighs 8,000 pounds. That leaves 1,900 pounds available for hitch weight.

1900 divided by 18% = 10,556. So I wouldn't even look at any 5er with a GVWR more than 10,500. But that's a fairly small 5er. So maybe you shopuld consider a TT toy hauler to get a much bigger trailer?

1900 divided by 12% = over 15,000 pounds. So GVWR is not your limiter for a TT. 23000 GCWR minus 8000 truck weight = 15,000 pounds maximum GVWR of any TT you can tow without being overloaded over the GCWR of your tow vehicle.

So if you want a toy hauler, then look for a TT with GVWR less than 15k. But note that a 15k TT will overload your receiver. So you must replace the receiver with one that's rated for more than 15k. For example, the Reese Titan:
Reese Titan Class V, 2-1/2 inch Receiver Hitch 45297

Eexample 2: Your truck is the heaviest '99 they made = CrewCab 4x4 diesel with 8' bed. When wet and loaded for the road, it grosses 9,000 pounds. That leaves 900 pounds for hitch weight. You can run the numbers from there.

Quote:
I have seen people mention pin weight on this site. What is that.
"Pin" is short for "kingpin", which is the knob that sticks down from under a 5er and connects to the 5er hitch. IOW, pin weight is the hitch weight of a fifth wheel trailer.

Quote:
We looked at a new KING Cyclone CY 4100 and dealer guy was telling us 7.3L engines could pull it with no problem.

Sure, you can pull it - over flat ground and maybe even up slight grades. But you'll exceed the GVWR and maybe the GCWR of your truck, so are likely to burn something up or break something if you try to climb any steep hills or mountain passes.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:25 AM   #11
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Continued from above:
IRV2 limits the amount of time I have to edit a post, and time ran out while I slept overnight. So this post may seem a bit disjointed from the one above, but it's intended to correct and then be in addition to the above post.

The GCWR of your truck indicates how much trailer you can pull if hitch weight were not a limiter. So if the trailer is a west Texas wagon-style cotton-hauler trailer with no hitch weight, or a midwest wagon-style grain hauler trailer with no hitch weight, then subtracting the weight of the wet and loaded pickup from the GCWR would tell you the max weight of that trailer without being overloaded.

Your truck has a GCWR of 20,000 pounds. That's a hard number you can use. It's not an estimate, it's a limit. The 23,000 pounds I posted above is for a 2005-up F-350 SRW diesel, not your truck. So instead of a 15,000 pound TT, your limit is a 12,000 pound TT.

The factory tow rating is an estimate - the GCWR of your tow vehicle (TV) minus the wet and loaded weight of your tow vehicle. But its way overstated because they use the naked and empty weight of the TV, plus 150 pounds for a skinny driver as the weight of the wet and loaded truck.

For example, your '99 Ford F-350 SRW has a GCWR of 20,000 pounds, and Ford's tow rating for a 4x4 CrewCab is 13,200 pounds. But subtract that tow rating from the 20,000 GCWR and you'll see that you have that much tow rating only when your wet and loaded truck weighs only 6,800 pounds. But when you weigh your wet and loaded TV per the above post, if it's a 4x4 you'll see it weighs a lot more than 6,800 pounds. (My 4x2 CrewCab Diesel usually weighed about 8,000 pounds when wet and loaded for towing. And that was with only one passenger.)

You mentioned a tow rating of 14,600 pounds, but that's for a different truck, not for your F-350 SRW.

And the tow ratings ignore the GVWR, which limits hitch weight. But the GVWR and not the GCWR is probably your limiter for an SRW pickup. So ignore the tow rating and work on estimating the hitch weight limits.

Properly loaded TTs have a hitch weight of about 10 to 15 percent of the gross weight of the trailer. The GVWR of the trailer tells you the most it can weigh without the trailer being overloaded, so I use the GVWR of the trailer as the weight of the trailer when matching trailer to tow vehicle. The average TT will have a hitch weight of about 12 percent. So I usually use 12 percent when estimating hitch weight. But some TTs, including mine, have a hitch weight of 15 percent of the weight of the trailer. So if you want to be certain of not being overloaded with a certain TT, then use 15 percent of the GVWR of the trailer as the hitch weight.

Fifth wheel RV trailers in the 10,000 to 12,000 pound range have a hitch weight of about 17 to 20 percent of the gross trailer weight. So I often use 18 percent of the GVWR of the trailer for estimating hitch weight. Lighter 5ers may have a wet and loaded hitch weight of as little as 15 percent, and heavier trailers may have a hitch weight of as much as 24 percent of trailer weight. So again, if you want to be sure you'll never be overloaded, then assume 24% of the GVWR of the trailer as the hitch weight, then be sure your TV has unused payload capacity to handle that much hitch weight without exceeding the GVWR of the TV.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:25 AM   #12
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Also, the hitch weight of a toyhauler travel trailer is often higher when wet but unloaded. the manufacturers assume you will be putting a significant load in the back, so most of the "house" systems are well forward of the axles.

My 25' carson's hitch weight varied about 300 lbs depending on the load state.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:52 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
Sure, you can pull it - over flat ground and maybe even up slight grades. But you'll exceed the GVWR and maybe the GCWR of your truck, so are likely to burn something up or break something if you try to climb any steep hills or mountain passes.
Big agree with this one. I see this alot particularly by the seller. Sure a Ranger will pull it but what I'm wanting is what will stop it. Also I'm concerned about pulling something not something pushing me. And run if they say "oh yeah we pull it everywhere with a F250.." sorry not me.

When I was looking to upgrade I was surprised at how little payload they actually were rated for. I guess they are made for only a couple of dirt bikes. Most people generally under estimate all the "stuff" they bring along. "Hey there's still room bring it.. just in case."

Over spec your tow vehicle to your trailer.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:18 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TXDIANIMAL

Can you help up determine the largest tow for our truck which is so confusing. We have 1999 F350 7.3L Super Crew 4 X 4 single wheel not a dually.
The door tag states FRONT GAWR 5500 REAR GAWR 6000 GVWR-9900. Owners manual did not provide info for 7.3L diesel. In the 1999 Ford RV & Trailer towing guide on page 16 the chart states the MLTW is 13,100 GCWR is 20,000 AXLE RATIO 3.73. Then on page 13 there is graph with a title stating maximum trailer weights (in pounds) for Properly Equipped Ford Vehicles (with no cargo). When you look at graph bar titled F-Series Pick-up Fifth Wheel it states 14,600 pounds. I am so confused. It also talks about Frontal Area Consideration & Tongue Weight. I have seen people mention pin weight on this site. What is that. We looked at a new KING Cyclone CY 4100 and dealer guy was telling us 7.3L engines could pull it with no problem.
I cant remember the weight but it was heavy. 16,000 plus ???
I like the Endurmax 3912END, Voltage 3795, Cyclone CY4100 Toy Haulers. Also looked at nice Redwood 5th Wheel not a TH. I will have to look up models & get weight.
But after reading what you wrote above, we may need to upgrade truck? Or get lighter 5th wheel instead of toy hauler.
Any help appreciated.
http://www.hillerford.com/resource_l...wing_guide.pdf
Search online Ford Fleet Towing Guides it details toying specfications by model and hitch type.
You can tow that 4014 but I sure would not, we own a Cyclone 3814 and a 2011 F350 DRW Diesel, this truck handles the load without any issues, pulling a load also means stopping it as well.
That new 4014 looks nice as, we like the 14 foot garage, we lost some living space but we opted for the electric combo beds in the garage and use it as a dining room when empty, the Cyclone is a nice toyhauler and less man gave than others, she likes that.
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