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Old 10-20-2012, 09:08 PM   #1
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Upgrading

We have had our Cyclone for 2 years and overall we are pleased with the camper and Heartland Customer Service.
But, we would like the option to use our camper in the winter here in NH. As the Cyclone sits I don't believe she is really winter in New England equipped, perhaps none really are.
I have been online looking at the Excels and New Horizons, yes they make their own frames the Excels drop frame is nice just for the height gains, but Wow were talking a significant price differential to say the least.
Yea, we all hear the old adage you get what you pay for, but is there substance to justify 50/60k difference between the volume manufacturer and the MaPa low volume manufacturer or is it possible to spend 5/10k or so and have a 4 season camper and still be ahead 40K plus.
Those Excel fans etc please don't be insulted, they sure are nice campers I'm just looking at value for your dollar.

Thanks
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:04 AM   #2
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I'm sorry no one replied to you sooner, as you are asking valid questions.

I, too, wonder how the major price difference is justified. I don't really see anything exceptional about them, outside of using solid wood cabinetry, that could justify the price difference. Having said that, I'm certainly no expert!! However, it would take a tremendous amount of anything to justify a $50-$60,000 more price tag. No insults intended at all, just what I can see. Perhaps someone does know how it is justifiable.

I'm also looking for dollar value and a unit that's capable of being in cold/hot weather without consuming major amounts of fuel/electricity for heating and cooling. It's true that there's only so much room to work with in the floor, ceiling and walls in an RV, therefore insulation is limited to that.

The only major advancement I've seen in increasing an RV's thermal value is the use of fiberglass (or similar) with astrofoil type of insulation, which, if I understand correctly, astrofoil or similar, is foil-backed bubble wrap. Also, some manufacturers are using foam insulation rather than fiberglass and astrofoil, such as EPS used by Gulf Stream (Enduramax). Heartland is also using foam. The foam insulation does not achieve the same R-values as the fiberglass and astrofoil combo, but I'm not sure how effective astrofoil, with it's quoted R-15value, actually is in a real-world application.

I have a running list, including R-value specs, of the highest insulated (R-value, which by no means tells the whole story) toy haulers out there. If you are interested, let me know. Neither Excel or New Horizons are on my list, by the way. Neither is KZ or the Desert Fox by Northwood.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:56 PM   #3
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BobbiC, I would very much appreciate that list that you have going. We are looking at toyhaulers too, and living in Alberta, Canada, we really want a good insulation. Like the both of you we haven't found anything that really warrants the price jump for the New Horizons and such, as you said maybe its in the cabinetry, but that also adds extra weight too. I can say that we use the foil bubble wraps up here for our windows and skirting for the winter and if there is something outside of the foil then it is a tremendous insulator.... go figure we just thought bubble wrap was good for packing glass and popping
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:57 AM   #4
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BobbiC, I would very much appreciate that list that you have going. We are looking at toyhaulers too, and living in Alberta, Canada, we really want a good insulation. Like the both of you we haven't found anything that really warrants the price jump for the New Horizons and such, as you said maybe its in the cabinetry, but that also adds extra weight too. I can say that we use the foil bubble wraps up here for our windows and skirting for the winter and if there is something outside of the foil then it is a tremendous insulator.... go figure we just thought bubble wrap was good for packing glass and popping
LOL....My dog, especially, enjoys popping bubble wrap!...lol.

Being in Canada definitely warrants top insulation!

Agreed regarding the New Horizons. If I really wanted something more residential for a fair price and it was just the two of us, I'd get a tiny house built on a goose-neck trailer vs. any RV. In fact, that's in my future plans when we don't need extra space for kids. It'd be more durable, I believe.

Anyhow, on to my list, which I decided to share here for the benefit of anyone else interested. Note that there were instances I couldn't find all the details. I really had to dig for some of this information; this list represents a lot of time and research, believe me! Some of these are older RVs since I don't want to spring for a new one due to depreciation, plus I'd prefer the bugs already be worked out. I believe the only ones that aren't insulated with astrofoil and rolled insulation are by Heartland and the Gulf Stream Enduramax, maybe Jayco Recon. Always confirm anything you are seriously interested in. I could have made a mistake! And always look or ask if the RV has a decal somewhere that says something like Polar Package or All Season Package. Sometimes upgraded insulation was just an option. Not sure if I am interested in dual-pane windows or not. I've heard that they are having problems with the seals after only a year, even with the high-end frameless windows, and they need repaired or replaced. I have to research that more. I think I'm going to come up with insulated panels to put up on the windows when and where they are needed. But, that's just me.

Well Insulated Toy Haulers:

Forest River XLR Thunderbolt, Arctic Weather Package: R40-E Roof, Floors, Goose neck and front cap, R24-E Slide Floor, Dual Pane Windows (option)

2011 Dutchmen Voltage, All Weather and Polar Package: R-40 Roof & Floor, R-24 Slide Floor and R-11 walls.

Sunnybrook Titan and Big Dog Unleashed, R-25 roof and floor, R-9 walls

Open Range Rolling Thunder, R-38 roof and floor, walls (?)

2010 and newer Jayco Recon ZX. Polar Barrier insulation package = astro foil + R-21 foam insulation.This one was confusing. Not sure it R-value is total or not.

Gulf Stream Enduramax = EPS foam insulation, R-28 roof, R-32 floor, R-12 walls. I believe pre-2010 models may have lower R-Values. A brand new one may have higher R-value. I don't think the GS website is updated for 2013 model.

Heartland Cyclone, Road Warrior: R-27 floor, R-23 roof, R-9 walls. Not sure which years this applies to, but definitely new ones.

Keystone Raptor, 38, 31, 9. Not sure about all years this includes.

Keystone Fuzion (sucks without Blizzard Package). May include back to 2010 models. R-31 Insulation in Roof, Floor, and Front Cap, R-24 Insulation in Slide-out Floor, R-9 walls.

Starcraft Rock Star – R-25 foam in roof, R-24 fiberglass and astrofoil in floor, and foam walls. R-15 in slide out floors. Built in 2009 and 2010 only.







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Old 12-13-2012, 02:26 PM   #5
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We looked at several TH's before we bought (On your list), Open Range w/4 Season Package, Raptor's, Voltage, we or should I say she like the décor in the Open Range and Cylone's as they were less man cave. But these were at local dealers in NH and none had Thermal Pane Windows, 2nd AC, etc.
The Thermal Pane windows are nice, so far we have had no issues of clouding, one was broken at the local dealer when in for repairs, their nickel.
My intentions are to insulate the floor enclosure which is essentially a piece of corrugated plastic of some sort, and have a lower wrap made to fully enclose the lower part of the camper.
It's difficult to determine how different campers will perform in winter type environment's and like you Bobbi were in a tough winter climate. So, after hearing little or nothing about my question it appears either I'm beating a dead horse or there simply isn't a good answer. I'm not sure investing over 100K in a RV is a wise investment in particular where we paid under 60K for a 3814 Loaded. I had thought the Excel/Horizons folks would chime in, but I guess again maybe no good answer.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #6
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Thanks BobbiC, for the list, it seems you and I have been coming up with the same numbers. When I get a chance I will try to type mine out, well any differences anyway, no need for the whole list if there are a lot the same. You are right on some of the trailers it is really hard to find out what the real numbers are.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:45 PM   #7
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We looked at several TH's before we bought (On your list), Open Range w/4 Season Package, Raptor's, Voltage, we or should I say she like the décor in the Open Range and Cylone's as they were less man cave. But these were at local dealers in NH and none had Thermal Pane Windows, 2nd AC, etc.
The Thermal Pane windows are nice, so far we have had no issues of clouding, one was broken at the local dealer when in for repairs, their nickel.
My intentions are to insulate the floor enclosure which is essentially a piece of corrugated plastic of some sort, and have a lower wrap made to fully enclose the lower part of the camper.
It's difficult to determine how different campers will perform in winter type environment's and like you Bobbi were in a tough winter climate. So, after hearing little or nothing about my question it appears either I'm beating a dead horse or there simply isn't a good answer. I'm not sure investing over 100K in a RV is a wise investment in particular where we paid under 60K for a 3814 Loaded. I had thought the Excel/Horizons folks would chime in, but I guess again maybe no good answer.
I'd be trying to find ways to increase thermal ability with my RV too if I had one. When we get one, I will be inspecting areas that hold the potential to increase insulation, probably foam sheet insulation and spray foam where applicable.

I know one person who would be the most likely person to tackle your question regarding Expensive Horizons, I mean New Horizons, and that's Jack Mayer over at Rv-dreams.com. I recently posted a thread about insulation in RVs. He is the last person who posted in my thread here: Concerns/Discussion About Types of Insulation in RVs - RV-Dreams Community Forum He is a big advocate and sort of a brand ambassador for them.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:18 PM   #8
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I missed one....The Denali toy hauler with astrofoil and fiberglass:
R40 Insulation Rating - Floors, Roof, Front & Gooseneck
R24 Slide Room Floor
R9 Walls
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:16 PM   #9
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Just got this back from Heartland..
Wyneeta

With the standard builds of Cyclone and Road Warrior the side walls R-9 side walls R-27 roof and R-23 in the floors. With the Canadian arctic package you will get better R-Values in the unit. It will still have the same side wall R-9 it will then have a higher R-Value in the roof and the floor with R-47 in the roof and R-43 in the floors. And you will get more insulation in the cap of the unit to. It will have main wrapped and heated water lines and pads on the fresh black and grey tanks. Please let me know if I can help in any way my cell number in below feel free to call at anytime.

Thanks

John Jones
Regional Sales Manager
Cyclone/Roadwarrior/Torque
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:30 AM   #10
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Thanks for posting that, Shaker. Interesting about the Canadian insulation package.

I was looking at a video of a brand new Endura Max recently on YouTube. It had a decal which said "Extreme Thermal Package" or something like that, yet I cannot find out exactly what that is anywhere on the GS site. I emailed but have not heard back. They may be out of the office until the weather warms up.
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