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Old 07-06-2013, 05:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by John Hilley View Post
Did you measure the current in the two hot legs and the neutral?
No not yet. Just having a rest. Though I would assume, I know dangerous word, that all is within spec as there is zero heat on the wires. But I will check.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:01 PM   #30
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I read your previous posts. IMHO You were correct to focus on the transfer relay.

Good it is working now. No problem re the assistence.

As others have noted - heat = resistance = power loss. There should be no heat or power loss measured across a transfer switch. I suspect the contacts are pitted or corroded. Contacts can be cleaned if you can get access to them but they must be very highly polished with no grooves or rough parts left on the contacts. No harm in trying to clean them if you can get at them.

When the relay is activated/deactivated while there is a large current draw at the time or occurs before a solid connection is made, arching on the contacts can pitt and will cause further corrosion/pitting to occur under the right conditions. Best to have heavy loads disconnected when connecting or disconnecting the power. The same applies for the genny of course but the default is normally the gen when there is no shore power.

Had you measured the voltage on both sides of the transfer relay contacts, you would have noticed a voltage drop. This would be proof the relay was not making a good connection. The heat on the neutral wire on one side of the relay was an absoulte sign there was a bad connection there. No guarantee other contacts are not pitted, but the neutral is likely to be effected first.

I suspect it will work OK with the relay bypassed,

Good luck.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:26 PM   #31
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I just to some measurements. Sadly they mean nothing to me, and they weren't what I was expecting to see.
Without further ado the readings were;
Black wire .7
Red wire 3.1
These were taken with the AC on max, the TV and entertainment system on, fridge on AC, and whatever other smaller items the coach has wired in.
Now I was expecting to see a number of around 25 or so, so I expect that I hooked up the meter incorrectly. Remember I'm on a 30 Amp service.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:31 PM   #32
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You must not have the meter set right.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:44 PM   #33
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Are those measurements with the induction ammeter and it was clealy clamped around only one wire at the transfer relay.

You are correct, you should measure around 25A total with that load.

Do you have the scale set right on the meter? Not on DC etc !!! Just a thoughtl
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:46 PM   #34
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You must not have the meter set right.
That's what I'm thinking. That will be a lesson for another day. It's been a long hot one here in Nova Scotia. I'll take the small victory. Time to have a coffee and kill some mosquitoes.
Thanks for all your help.

Stewart
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:15 AM   #35
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Well, had the AC on all night and I'm still alive to tell the tale. No heat in the wires. Short term solution in place and works well.
Thanks to all who provided information.

Stewart
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:17 AM   #36
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I looked at the reviews on that meter. People have had some problems with it. In general it looks like the ammeter function reads accurately, but the voltage doesn't. Some have had complete failure of some functions.

I would test it soon to see if you read somewhere around 120 VAC between black and white and between red and white when in volts AC position. When plugged into a 50 amp you should read around 240 VAC between the red and black.

When in the AC amps position you should read up to 25 amps on one of the red or black wires. On the white you should see the total of what is read on the red and black.

It is also useful to learn how to use the ohm meter function. Use this for continuity testing, end to end of a wire disconnected from both ends. On a straight wire you should see close to 0 ohms. For testing bulbs and heating elements you will see more ohms.

Also check the DC volts function with battery side of motor home. Around 12.6 VDC for fully charged battery not being charged by converter and between 13 and 14.5 volts while being charged.

Take a look at this

Using Your Multimeter Parts 1 to 3
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:46 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by John Hilley View Post
I looked at the reviews on that meter. People have had some problems with it. In general it looks like the ammeter function reads accurately, but the voltage doesn't. Some have had complete failure of some functions.

I would test it soon to see if you read somewhere around 120 VAC between black and white and between red and white when in volts AC position. When plugged into a 50 amp you should read around 240 VAC between the red and black.

When in the AC amps position you should read up to 25 amps on one of the red or black wires. On the white you should see the total of what is read on the red and black.

It is also useful to learn how to use the ohm meter function. Use this for continuity testing, end to end of a wire disconnected from both ends. On a straight wire you should see close to 0 ohms. For testing bulbs and heating elements you will see more ohms.

Also check the DC volts function with battery side of motor home. Around 12.6 VDC for fully charged battery not being charged by converter and between 13 and 14.5 volts while being charged.

Take a look at this

Using Your Multimeter Parts 1 to 3
Thanks for the link, I'm going to take it with me to the ship and get one of the electricians go over it with me. We can test it out against their meters in real time. It will be very interesting. If its junk I'll take it back pronto.
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:07 PM   #38
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I read your previous posts. IMHO You were correct to focus on the transfer relay.

Good it is working now. No problem re the assistence.

As others have noted - heat = resistance = power loss. There should be no heat or power loss measured across a transfer switch. I suspect the contacts are pitted or corroded. Contacts can be cleaned if you can get access to them but they must be very highly polished with no grooves or rough parts left on the contacts. No harm in trying to clean them if you can get at them.

When the relay is activated/deactivated while there is a large current draw at the time or occurs before a solid connection is made, arching on the contacts can pitt and will cause further corrosion/pitting to occur under the right conditions. Best to have heavy loads disconnected when connecting or disconnecting the power. The same applies for the genny of course but the default is normally the gen when there is no shore power.

Had you measured the voltage on both sides of the transfer relay contacts, you would have noticed a voltage drop. This would be proof the relay was not making a good connection. The heat on the neutral wire on one side of the relay was an absoulte sign there was a bad connection there. No guarantee other contacts are not pitted, but the neutral is likely to be effected first.

I suspect it will work OK with the relay bypassed,

Good luck.
After having an evening drawing a cool breath I still have a couple of nagging questions.

Why was it only at the Txfer Sw that the wires were burning up? No where else upstream or down was there any heat at any connection.

Was the whole thing caused by my Sw starting with an over loaded condition?

How is it that none of the breakers popped? From the Park breaker down the line through the Txfer Sw and TRC 50 Amp Surge Protector to the load center, not one let go or stopped the power flow. There is no doubt I had to much running to be supported by a 30Amp circuit, but in the past the only thing that happened was that the Park breaker popped. Slap myself in the forehead, turn some stuff off, reset the breaker, and carry on. In this instance that never happened and it almost cost us dearly.
Based on a short history of popping breakers, sadly yes I've been a dumba$$ before, I still maintain that it was the non breaking Park circuit breaker which allowed the power to continue flow and burn up the Sw. I'll never get to the bottom of the Park breaker because I'll never darken it's steps again, but why did none of the breakers, including the Surge Guard upstream from the Sw stop the power?
The only reading I too was at the post 122V, I wish I had taken more.

If you could shed some light on this I would appreciate it.

Stewart
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:34 PM   #39
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Probably a pitted contact on the transfer switch. Could be that the terminal you are connecting to has a poor connection to the relay.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:53 PM   #40
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After having an evening drawing a cool breath I still have a couple of nagging questions.

Q: Why was it only at the Txfer Sw that the wires were burning up? No where else upstream or down was there any heat at any connection.

A: Heat Transfer would occur from where the best physical connection was between the power source and the resistive component . Heat would be dissipated through the wire connected to the switch on the source side. The distant the heat travelled would be contingent on the amount of heat generated and the dissipation component of the wire and surrounding metal houusing of the other assemblies.

Q: Was the whole thing caused by my Sw starting with an over loaded condition?

A: I don't suspect the relay fault was caused by any overload condition. I understand you coach is wired for 50A,and would be protected by 50 A breakers hence should not overload any component on the power input from a 30A source. I suspect the transfer switch likely had pitted relay contacts, thus causing a bad connection possibly because of switching under heavy load. The relay may not have been connecting properly also because of low voltage from the pedistal on previous hookups. Power from the pedistal activates this relay and if the power is dodgy, your transfer relay could have been damaged at that time. If you hear "clatter" from that relay that is bad news.

Q: How is it that none of the breakers popped? From the Park breaker down the line through the Txfer Sw and TRC 50 Amp Surge Protector to the load center, not one let go or stopped the power flow.

A: The 50A coach breaker is on the load side of the Switch. The problem was between the Switch and the Pedistal. The coach Breakers and your surge protector were out of the circuit. You may have not been drawing more than 30A to pop the shore breaker. Remember the heated breaker, which transfered heat to the wire caused more load resistance.

There is no doubt I had to much running to be supported by a 30Amp circuit, but in the past the only thing that happened was that the Park breaker popped. Slap myself in the forehead, turn some stuff off, reset the breaker, and carry on. In this instance that never happened and it almost cost us dearly.

Based on a short history of popping breakers, sadly yes I've been a dumba$$ before, I still maintain that it was the non breaking Park circuit breaker which allowed the power to continue flow and burn up the Sw. I'll never get to the bottom of the Park breaker because I'll never darken it's steps again, but

Q: Why did none of the breakers, including the Surge Guard upstream from the Sw stop the power?

A: as noted above, the fault was before your breakers and the Surge guard.

The only reading I too was at the post 122V, I wish I had taken more.

Comment: Good Idea to check voltages at various places. had you checked the voltage in the coach you would have noticed a lower voltage than at the post. this would have told you there was resistance in the circuit, In this case it would have been bad relay contacts, Remember - heat = power loss, hence voltage drop in the circuit.

If you could shed some light on this I would appreciate it.

Stewart
Hope I was helpful Stuart.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:27 AM   #41
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Hope I was helpful Stuart.
That is more than I hoped for, thank you so much.

Stewart
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:39 AM   #42
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Glad I was able to help. I suspect your transfer switch was damaged by a bad power source (low voltage) or connecting with a heavy load turned on in the coach. I strongly suggest you verify the power source everytime and it is always a good idea to shut the breakers off on the coach or ensure you don't have a large load presented as you plug in or switch on the pedistal power.

I noted you have your surge protector after the transfer switch. This does of course provide protection from the genny and shore power but leaves the transfer relay exposed . I have my Progressive EMS installed right before the relay (connected to my external power line.) so I am protecting the relay. My preference.
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