charger/inverter versus converter unit

["007"]

Looking at your pictures I do not see a BIRD System devise.
Here is a thread that may help you about Bird and other info on how to keep your batteries charged, information in links in thread also.
There is nothing that says that you could not add a BIRD to keep all your batteries charged both house & chassis.

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by buck454

Hi Rick,
Not sure what a BIRD device looks like. I do know I may be having trouble with one solenoid because my emergency crank button does not seem to function. I believe this would not have anything to do with charging on chassis batteries....but only a guess. Maybe I can post a pic of compartment and see if someone might identify a BIRD device.
Bill

I am currently considering a Trik L Start to help keep my chassis batteries up while not in use.

A BIRD varies by manufacturer but typically looks like this one from Intellitec ... about 4 inches square. Quite often mounted near the "emergency crank" Solenoid and the Chassis batteries.


It's function is to tie the House and Chassis batteries together to allow your Inverter/Charger to charge both sets of batteries. It does this by picking the Solenoid THAT IS ALSO USED FOR BOOST (emergency crank). The problem you are seeing with lack of function of "emergency crank" is extremely likely to be the same problem with failure to charge the Chassis battery from the Inverter/Charger. The BIRD and the Solenoid are usually fused .... start there. The Solenoid is also know for failing ... if fuse is good check at the Solenoid. When the "emergency crank" switch is activated you should hear the Solenoid click and feel the "thunk" (put your finger on the side of the Solenoid). Takes 2 people since the switch is a momentary contact switch.

let us know what happens.

[mel s]

Originally Posted by buck454

The reason I brought up the question was because I thought my unit was converter also but just happen to be reading about my F458 and noticed it was considered a charger/inverter. I was disappointed as I was when I discovered that the charger was probably not installed to upkeep chassis batteries. I believe someone posted on another thread that it was a common cost cut by mh builders.

I have what I have, but bet converter would have been better.
B

I may be wrong, but I believe if you read your F458 inverter/charger manual you will find that is actually an inverter/converter/charger!

My Heart Freedom 20 Inverter/Charger has a converter built in.

Mel
'96 Safari

[bruceisla]

In your bottom picture of the Solenoid, one small wire at bottom of Solenoid should be ground and the other should have +12vdc when the "emergency crank" switch is activated. I don't see a BIRD in the picture but it can be integrated into a circuit board somewhere. Unfortunately, you will probably need a wiring diagram.

BTW, the Trik-L-Start is an excellent solution ... and better yet, the Amp-L-Start from the same company.
http://www.lslproducts.net/ALS_Overview_Page.html

However, that's not going to fix the emergency crank problem.

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by mel stuplich

I may be wrong, but I believe if you read your F458 inverter/charger manual you will find that is actually an inverter/converter/charger!

My Heart Freedom 20 Inverter/Charger has a converter built in.

Mel
'96 Safari

Yup ... mine too. It is a Heart Freedom 20D which is the predecessor to the Xantrex. It is 1) an MSW Inverter, 2) a Converter, 3) a 3 stage Charger, and 4) a Transfer Switch.

However, the Xantrex follow-on 458 series only claims 3 functions (no Converter).

Gee willikers! ... another step backwards.

[buck454]

Originally Posted by bruceisla

Yup ... mine too. It is a Heart Freedom 20D which is the predecessor to the Xantrex. It is 1) an MSW Inverter, 2) a Converter, 3) a 3 stage Charger, and 4) a Transfer Switch.

However, the Xantrex follow-on 458 series only claims 3 functions (no Converter).

Gee willikers! ... another step backwards.

Looked at it again this morning and it is labeled on front charger/inverter. Still no sign of BIRD device, just the solenoid pictured with the two big cables on each large terminal and activation wires on bottom small terminals. I do not know if this has any meaning but there is a reading accross two big terminals of approx 1.2 v at most any given time. That is with chassis disconnect on but ignition off. Still need to get second person to help with reading when aux crank switch is engaged.

Need to get that Trik L Start or Echo ordered also. Reading on chassis batteries has fell from 12.4-12.5V to 12.0V in about four days......there is a phantom drain somewhere. I know that is not uncommon but frustrating nevertheless.
Bill

[Dr4Film]

Originally Posted by buck454

I have a Freedom 458, as I am sure many others have. It is a charger/inverter not a converter, is this just as good as a converter? Does this just mean my unit keeps batteries charged to maintain DC power (inverter doing its thing when turned on), where a converter rather than charge batteries, converts AC to DC? Are there units that can do all three functions? Better?

Are F458s usually setup to charge chassis batteries as well as house batteries. It seems mine only charges house batteries and sufficiently does that....no complaints with inverter function as well. Bill

Bill,

I am late to this discussion but here is my take.

Your Inverter/Charger is a dual purpose device. It will convert 120 VAC to 12 VDC to keep your House batteries charged. In some coaches, it will also keep the Chassis batteries charged when hooked to 120 VAC shore power.

So the terms Charger & Converter are synonymous with each other.

Now for charging batteries, as stated earlier, possibly your coach was never wired to charge the Chassis batteries while hooked to shore power. Many are like that directly from the factory. Or you do have a Chassis battery charging system and it is NOT working. Since I don't know exactly what you have or not have I can't help with that part.

However, there are devices that you can purchase and easily hook up to your system that WILL keep your Chassis batteries fully charged while hooked to shore power.

They are the Trik-L-Start, Amp-L-Start, Echo Charger, Lambert Battery Maintainer. They all have different costs so choose one that will work for you.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by buck454

Looked at it again this morning and it is labeled on front charger/inverter. Still no sign of BIRD device, just the solenoid pictured with the two big cables on each large terminal and activation wires on bottom small terminals. I do not know if this has any meaning but there is a reading accross two big terminals of approx 1.2 v at most any given time. That is with chassis disconnect on but ignition off. Still need to get second person to help with reading when aux crank switch is engaged.

Need to get that Trik L Start or Echo ordered also. Reading on chassis batteries has fell from 12.4-12.5V to 12.0V in about four days......there is a phantom drain somewhere. I know that is not uncommon but frustrating nevertheless.
Bill

If you measure ACROSS the 2 big terminals on the Solenoid, and the Boost switch is engaged, and the voltage is anything greater than zero (like your example of 1.2vdc), the Solenoid has either failed to pick or the contacts inside are not making contact.

The same measurement without the Boost switch activated will show the difference between the Chassis bat voltage and the House bat voltage.

If the charger was charging both batteries (thru a BIRD), and the BIRD and Solenoid were working correctly, this voltage would be zero (just like when the Boost switch was activated).

Yes you also have a phantom or parasitic drain. A 1/2 vdc per day is excessive. Check all the usual suspects like a cargo compartment light left on (although that's unlikely to be on the Chassis side).

As Richard said, not all coaches were delivered with a device that charges the Chassis bats from the Inverter/Charger.

[buck454]

Originally Posted by bruceisla

If you measure ACROSS the 2 big terminals on the Solenoid, and the Boost switch is engaged, and the voltage is anything greater than zero (like your example of 1.2vdc), the Solenoid has either failed to pick or the contacts inside are not making contact.

The same measurement without the Boost switch activated will show the difference between the Chassis bat voltage and the House bat voltage.

If the charger was charging both batteries (thru a BIRD), and the BIRD and Solenoid were working correctly, this voltage would be zero (just like when the Boost switch was activated).

Yes you also have a phantom or parasitic drain. A 1/2 vdc per day is excessive. Check all the usual suspects like a cargo compartment light left on (although that's unlikely to be on the Chassis side).

As Richard said, not all coaches were delivered with a device that charges the Chassis bats from the Inverter/Charger.

OK, I have this 1.2 V current when ignition switch is off and of course Boost not engaged. When my DW gets to feeling better I will ask her to assist in my readings. I ASSUME IGNITION ON, THEN SECOND PARTY ACTIVATES SWITCH WHILE I HOLD POINTERS ON EACH POST, DOES IT MATTER WHERE N AND P POINTERS ARE (LEFT OR RIGHT POST)? HOW ABOUT BOTTOM TERMINALS SHOULD I CHECK THEM..AGAIN DOES IT MATTER WHICH POINTER GOES WHERE? Yes, I am a bit ignorant about V-meter but trying to learn.

Echo looks like the device I might need and I have sent message to Xantrex.

bill

[buck454]

With ignition off MH setting idle (although connected to shore power) there is a reading that varies from 1.0-1.2 accross large terminal posts. With ignition switch on and Boost switch activated solenoid bumps/clicks but NO change in reading. I also check bottom small terminals, when Boost activated I got a 11.9V reading. What does this tell us? I know the click is a sign, but good or bad.

I don't remember the Boost switch ever working since we bought MH, and I have tried it a time or two. Just thought I was doing something wrong. Bill

[bruceisla]

Ok ... the "bump" is a good sign (sort of). With Boost activated the 11.9vdc indicates the Boost switch works, the voltage is getting all the way to the solenoid, and the "bump" indicates the solenoid has mechanically picked. The lack of a change from 1.2vdc across the 2 big terminals indicates the contacts within the Solenoid are not making contact.

It would appear your Solenoid has failed.

The part number for the solenoid is usually printed on the side or on a label. They typically cost $25 - $50. I replaced mine last year.

[buck454]

Originally Posted by bruceisla

Ok ... the "bump" is a good sign (sort of). With Boost activated the 11.9vdc indicates the Boost switch works, the voltage is getting all the way to the solenoid, and the "bump" indicates the solenoid has mechanically picked. The lack of a change from 1.2vdc across the 2 big terminals indicates the contacts within the Solenoid are not making contact.

It would appear your Solenoid has failed.

The part number for the solenoid is usually printed on the side or on a label. They typically cost $25 - $50. I replaced mine last year.

Here is additional info that means nothing to me but probably points to same answer...faulty solenoid:
I just cranked engine and ran it a while. Chassis batteries boosted back to 12.4 in 5-10 minutes and reading accross post in solenoid, engine running or not, fell to 0.5-0.6V. Evidently the reading accross terminals on solenoid are directly proportioned to charge of chassis batteries.

Got the number...Trombetta 114-1211-020

bill

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by buck454

Here is additional info that means nothing to me but probably points to same answer...faulty solenoid:
I just cranked engine and ran it a while. Chassis batteries boosted back to 12.4 in 5-10 minutes and reading accross post in solenoid, engine running or not, fell to 0.5-0.6V. Evidently the reading accross terminals on solenoid are directly proportioned to charge of chassis batteries.

Got the number...Trombetta 114-1211-020

bill

yes ... when both the Chassis bats and House bats are near full charge they will be at nearly identical voltage and therefore the difference (big terminal #1 versus big terminal #2) will measure nearly zero.

Here's one ... you may find cheaper.

Trombetta 12 Volt Bear DC Contactor Part No. 114-1211-020: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

[buck454]

Originally Posted by bruceisla

yes ... when both the Chassis bats and House bats are near full charge they will be at nearly identical voltage and therefore the difference (big terminal #1 versus big terminal #2) will measure nearly zero.

Here's one ... you may find cheaper.

Trombetta 12 Volt Bear DC Contactor Part No. 114-1211-020: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Bruce,
Got it in my Amazon cart along with a Xantrex Echo charger and a couple of battery disconnects (one for Jeep and one for my Ford 4000 tractor). Bet I could buy a solenoid cheaper at local parts store but feel perhaps I shoud replace with what is on there. Is Trombetta better than most brands?
Bill