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09-28-2014, 01:51 PM
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#1
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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Crazy inverter problem...
I have a 2001 National Tradewinds 4374 with a 7500 Onan diesel genset, and Freedom #458 2500 inverter. It's been sitting all summer. We took it on a fishing trip last Friday and everything was working fine before we left(genset, TV, lights, etc). After plugging in to 50 amp shore power at campsite we lost power to most AC outlets. Microwave and roof A/C's still worked. Breakers in coach panel were fine. Inverter remote showed 50amp in, but batteries were not charging. Noticed breaker #2 on inverter was tripped. When I reset it I heard a loud hum then it quickly tripped(I'm assuming this is the breaker for the non-working circuit). Lights on inverter showed "invert: solid green, "charge" blinking green. Manual shows "inverting. Charger ready but no external AC available". Reset button on inverter was normal. Roof A/C's worked, but progressively slowed down as battery charge was lost. Also eventually got "low bat" flashing red light on inverter.
Finally decided to take it home and investigate instead of going dead at campsite. On the way home batteries were recharged by a combination of motor and genset output. While under gen power everything seems to work fine other than the AC outlet circuit.
Anyone have any ideas?
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09-29-2014, 03:00 AM
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#2
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Moderator Emeritus
Country Coach Owners Club Appalachian Campers Gulf Streamers Club
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Chattanooga, Tn.
Posts: 12,060
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If everything is working OK off of the generator; not just the alternator while traveling, then the problem is not the inverter but the transfer switch could be an issue. If the batteries are only getting a charge from the alternator, you have 120 vac feeding the input to the inverter but the circuit breaker trips we will need to know which breaker trips if you have more than one. Was there any other loads coming through? What kind of condition are the house batteries in?
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Mike, RVIA & RVSA Certified Master RV Technician
Amy, Dr. Assistant - Roxie & Mei Ling, four legs each
2000 Gulf Stream Scenic Cruiser 450 hp & 1330# torque
06 Saturn Vue, 06 Chevy Z71 4x4 & 2014 Corvette Z51 M7
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09-29-2014, 07:09 AM
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#3
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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Thank you. The batteries are being charged by both the alternator and the generator. The thrown breaker was #2 on side of inverter. I believe it feeds the AC receptacles. Breaker #1 feeds the microwave. The only load was the A/C units, but even with nothing on and the #2 breaker re-set it would hum at the fuse panel beside it and then trip. House breakers were OK, but could only run 1 A/C at a time. House batteries were a little low on water and 2 years old. I do see the "battery" light next to "salesman switch" at entry controller stays on even after charging. I considered replacing house batteries, but still can't figure out why #2 breaker keeps tripping and why panel shows 50amp in when on shore power. .....GFI's are good.
On a side note, the only thing done differently this summer is we installed a cover on the coach that covered the solar panels for charging the house batteries.
__________________
Never give a monkey a loaded gun, no matter how responsible you think he is.
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09-29-2014, 08:08 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Spokane Valley, Wa
Posts: 1,987
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The salesman switch light comes on when the switch is turned on, that connects the house batteries to the 12 volt items in the coach. It has nothing to do with the charge state of the batteries.
The panel input power is not automatic in most cases but selected for the type of shore power you are plugged into by you.
Your AC's are not run off the inverter.
It sounds like you have one or more bad GFI's on #2 circuit or a short some where or something drawing a lot of power.
Next you need to check the ac power input to the inverter/charger to make sure it is getting power with either shore power or genset.
This could be a tripped 30 amp breaker or bad breaker in the main service panel or the lack of power on one of the buss feeds. If that is the case as stated you might have a problem in the transfer panel.
This is a broad approach to find out what is working and narrow down what is not.
As a after thought did you check the outside GFI outlet as it is on #2 circuit
__________________
Art
1999 Trade Winds 7371 Cat 3126B w/current upgrades
1990 D 250 Dodge Ram Cummins Turbo
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09-29-2014, 11:10 AM
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#5
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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There is a battery light along with step light, interior light, outside light, and others beside the "salesman switch". The battery light has never come on until now. I'm guessing from discharge related to unidentified problem.
I'm trying to get the proper order of succession in my head: AC power comes in thru shore or gen to transfer switch(this box is in forward drivers basement compartment). From there it goes to main coach breaker box( in hallway) for all AC usage AND goes to invertor/charger(in aft basement electical distribution center) to be used for 2 inverted 120vac circuits and charging batteries? Thanks for any help you can give. Trying to figure out electrical issues makes my brain itch. And if I need to take it to somebody for repair I'd like to have a good idea where the problem is instead of paying a shop tech $80 an hour to diagnose.
__________________
Never give a monkey a loaded gun, no matter how responsible you think he is.
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09-29-2014, 11:37 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Spokane Valley, Wa
Posts: 1,987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxgeezer
There is a battery light along with step light, interior light, outside light, and others beside the "salesman switch". The battery light has never come on until now. I'm guessing from discharge related to unidentified problem.
I'm trying to get the proper order of succession in my head: AC power comes in thru shore or gen to transfer switch(this box is in forward drivers basement compartment). From there it goes to main coach breaker box( in hallway) for all AC usage AND goes to invertor/charger(in aft basement electical distribution center) to be used for 2 inverted 120vac circuits and charging batteries? Thanks for any help you can give. Trying to figure out electrical issues makes my brain itch. And if I need to take it to somebody for repair I'd like to have a good idea where the problem is instead of paying a shop tech $80 an hour to diagnose.
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You have the proper order of succession down.
Inverter:
Circuit #1 provides power to the microwave and 1 or 2 outlets near that
location in most cases.
Circuit #2 provides power to the bathroom, outside patio outlet both GFI
and to both front and rear tv's as well as a few other outlets.
It is hard to tell on Nationals as the factor drawings were not followed all the time so you might have a few differences.
When either on shore power or genset the AC power supplied to the inverter/ charger is supplied to the charger and also passed thru to circuits #1 & #2.
If the charger is turned on it will charge the batteries.
If there is no AC getting to the inverter/charger and the inverter is turned on it will supply AC to circuits # 1 & #2 if the breakers are on.
To do a reset of the inverter/charger on the front of it there is what looks
like a phone cable, unplug it and wait a few minutes then plug it back in.
That will reset the unit to default settings.
Hope this helps
__________________
Art
1999 Trade Winds 7371 Cat 3126B w/current upgrades
1990 D 250 Dodge Ram Cummins Turbo
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09-29-2014, 12:59 PM
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#7
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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Great description! I'm starting to understand it. I have a couple of follow up questions: where and how does the main breaker box fit into this equation? Does AC go to it before the inverter? Are inverter circuits considered secondary to mains breaker box circuits? And since inverter panel showed 50amp AC in, shouldn't everything work from main breaker box? Does transfer panel switch shore power from main breaker box to inverter?
I may have forgotten to mention that when on 50a shore power, when I push "invert off" on panel, everything on circuit #1 goes dead also, just like pushing battery disconnect switch. When I turn "invert on", everything on circuit #1 comes on and starts draining batteries, which tells me shore power not making it thru inverter. Really seems like a short somewhere in inverter circuit #2, but why no pass thru 120vac?
__________________
Never give a monkey a loaded gun, no matter how responsible you think he is.
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09-29-2014, 01:37 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Spokane Valley, Wa
Posts: 1,987
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AC power is fed to the transfer panel either by shore power or genset. The transfer
panel defaults to shore power if present other wise allows genset to provide power.
Power is fed from the transfer panel to the main panel where different circuits get
power thru circuit breakers.
One of those breakers (30amp) feeds the inverter/charger, in some cases there will
be two 30 amp breakers for inverter/charger dual input types.
I believe what you are seeing on the inverter panel is what someone set as the type
of power you are plugged into. Setting this allows the unit to power share so that
you do not exceed the input power limits.
Power sent to the inverter/charger runs the charger and will pass thru 2 circuit breakers to power the 2 output circuits.
From what you indicated you have 2 problems, first you have a short on circuit 2
most likely a GFI triped or has gone bad.
Second it does not appear that you have AC to the inverter/charger input.
Locate the inverter/charger circuit breaker (should be 30amp) and turn it off then back on. This breaker is located normally in the main panel and a little force needs
to be applied towards the off before turning it on.
The only other thing that comes to mind is if the inverter/charger has a problem internal such as a blown fuse( there is one in there) the pass thru relays can not
activate which could be the cause of no charge or AC from the shore power or genset getting thru the inverter/charger to it's 2 output circuits.
It is a step by step trouble shoot first make sure you have power getting to the inverter/charger if so most likely problem is inverter/charger. On circuit 2 find the
bad GFI outlet and replace if it can not be reset. (Normally that is the problem)
And check the outside patio outlet as it is a GFI outlet and over looked a lot of the
time.
__________________
Art
1999 Trade Winds 7371 Cat 3126B w/current upgrades
1990 D 250 Dodge Ram Cummins Turbo
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09-29-2014, 05:56 PM
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#9
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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That puts it in perfect perspective. Thanks for the help. I think I can figure it out now.
Things were easier in my previous gas coaches with just a converter.
__________________
Never give a monkey a loaded gun, no matter how responsible you think he is.
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09-30-2014, 08:05 PM
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#10
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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Today we put a new GFI in beside the bathroom sink and inverter breaker now holds and most AC plugs on circuit #2 now work. The 3 outlets along the baseboard(non GFI) still have no AC. The new "big" problem is after starting the genset to charge coach batteries, it idles high for 1 minute, idles a little lower for another minute, then idles all the way down to normal idle for 10 seconds before dying. Gen start light flashes twice then repeats several times. Troubleshooting guide says "low oil" condition, but I checked it and oil level is normal. The only thing I can think of is maybe the coach batteries are so low they are affecting the charging system.
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Never give a monkey a loaded gun, no matter how responsible you think he is.
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10-01-2014, 11:54 AM
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#11
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 70
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Nothing like $600 worth of new batteries to solve the genset idle issue. Apparently they were too drained to hold enough amps to power anything. Problem solved. Thanks again for everyones input.
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Never give a monkey a loaded gun, no matter how responsible you think he is.
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