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Old 07-04-2011, 07:45 PM   #15
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wa8yxm
the inverter was installed in '01 and worked fine for the previous owner.
The ground cable is at least 3/8th inch, the positive 1/2 inch the run is at most 5 1/2 feet. Sounds like #2 and '0' to me.
all connections are tight and clean.
the micro is rated at 800 watts, the coffee maker at 1000 watts.
do i need a new inverter?
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
It is amazing some of the things I see here.

Yes, 90 percent it typical of inverter efficenties

That does not mean that I should multiply my Prosine 2.0's rated 2000 by 90 percent to get 1800 max. It means that if it's sucking 2200 watts out of the batteries,, It's delivering 1980 watts to the loads.

Work it out,

You have confused input with output.

I fail to see your distinction. If a load draws 1800 watts from a 2000 watt inverter with a 90% efficiency the DC power input into the inverter is 2000 watts and 100% of it normal capacity. Therefore the useful load from a 2000 watt inverter is 1800 watts. There's no hocus pocus going on its a simple derating of a piece of equipment, in this case, the inverter. It's simply watts in, watts out minus the efficiency.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by RJay View Post
I fail to see your distinction. If a load draws 1800 watts from a 2000 watt inverter with a 90% efficiency the DC power input into the inverter is 2000 watts and 100% of it normal capacity. Therefore the useful load from a 2000 watt inverter is 1800 watts. There's no hocus pocus going on its a simple derating of a piece of equipment, in this case, the inverter. It's simply watts in, watts out minus the efficiency.
The Heart inverter I use (Freedom 15) has a spec sheet defining the output power at ALL power factors to be 1500VA. It also specifies a peak efficiency of 92%. The math says it will draw power at full load 1630 VA. Seems to be in agreement with one of the previous posts.
However, Could there be some marketing hocus pocus in the way the specs are written? Based on performance I see, I think the Heart was very honestly and conservatively specified.

Voltage at the battery terminals with a 1500 watt toaster oven or our microwave is about 12.1 to 12.3 volts. The current draw appears to be about 140 amps from the two banks of golf cart batteries. This inverter is going on 15 years old and has on more then a few occasions run the microwave for more than an hour between recharges. I use 00 size cabling on all inverter related input elements.


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Old 07-05-2011, 08:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by edjahar42 View Post
wa8yxm
the inverter was installed in '01 and worked fine for the previous owner.
The ground cable is at least 3/8th inch, the positive 1/2 inch the run is at most 5 1/2 feet. Sounds like #2 and '0' to me.
all connections are tight and clean.
the micro is rated at 800 watts, the coffee maker at 1000 watts.
do i need a new inverter?
Well a nice true sine wave like the Prosine 2.0 or better might be nice. but NO, I don't think you need a new inverter.

My suspect list is as follows:

1: Connections, Battery, Fuse block, Fuse block (total 4 connections) Inverter.
2: Battieries themselves (DO you have at least 2 pair of golf car batteries, I forget, and how old are they, When was the last time you checked to see if they were thirsty (They drink DISTILLED water only). Mine at 6 years don't last long on microwave any more.

Finally you said the microwave is rated 800 watts.. Input or output?

Does your inverter have a digital monitor or just idiot lights? (I forget I think the Heart's just have status lights) My Prosine shows amps in/out of the battery and amps out to the loads as well as voltage in and out. That kind of detail can be....very helpful.

Normally I'd recommend a "Kill-a-watt" be used to measure device loading, but NOT with an MSW inverter.. Still you might measure the microwave and coffee maker on shore power with one. Just not on inverter power.

You could use a clamp on ammeter on the inverter's power out lead, that should work on MSW as well as True Sine.

By the way: the reason I do not recommend a Kill-a-watt on MSW inverters has to do with another post in these forums... The other poster said there were issues.. I've never attempted to verify his information.. (I am able to state some of what he said is false) but to be safe I do not recommend.. For or against. (He smoked a K-A-W or two, He said my Prosine would smoke mine too. So far (Six years and the meter is on the inverter any time I'm in motion) it's not done any damage.... yet.)
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:11 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by M&EM View Post
The Heart inverter I use (Freedom 15) has a spec sheet defining the output power at ALL power factors to be 1500VA. It also specifies a peak efficiency of 92%. The math says it will draw power at full load 1630 VA. Seems to be in agreement with one of the previous posts.
However, Could there be some marketing hocus pocus in the way the specs are written? Based on performance I see, I think the Heart was very honestly and conservatively specified.

Voltage at the battery terminals with a 1500 watt toaster oven or our microwave is about 12.1 to 12.3 volts. The current draw appears to be about 140 amps from the two banks of golf cart batteries. This inverter is going on 15 years old and has on more then a few occasions run the microwave for more than an hour between recharges. I use 00 size cabling on all inverter related input elements.


Marty
Marty,
I see your point now. Yes, I agree. The point is that the load required FROM(AC) the inverter is not the same load supplied TO(DC) the inverter because of the efficiency rating. (2000 vs 1800) = 90% in my example, and (1630 vs 1500) = 92% for yours. Your point is for a 1500 watt draw from the AC side of your inverter will require 1630 watts from the battery. Just as a full load 2000 watt draw form the AC side of my inverter will require 2222 watts from the battery.
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:26 PM   #20
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Inverter vs Mr Coffee

I've checked all DC connections, they're all clean n tite, the cables are welding lead and as I've said, the previous owner used the inverter for several years. Before he decided to sell to me he had not used it in quite a while and I didn't try to use it the first 1 1/2 years I had it. Then wanting to start fresh and get ready for our upcoming trip to Huntington Beach, Calif. and then up the coast to Seattle, hopefully not needing the generator except for charging, I installed four (4) new wetcell 230 amp hour golf cart batteries.
Today I uplugged the shore power and left the inverter running a small fan and the TV for several hours while I went to town, when I came back the idiot lights on the control panel said my batteries were marginal. I turned off the fan and turned on a 12 volt flourescent lite along with the tv and after 3 hours the status lights show normal on the inverter.
It seems to be working, has enough DC input, but won't carry any appreciable load of AC usage.
What do I look for? Bad connections where it ties into the AC power system?
Help
ED
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edjahar42 View Post
I've checked all DC connections, they're all clean n tite, the cables are welding lead and as I've said, the previous owner used the inverter for several years. Before he decided to sell to me he had not used it in quite a while and I didn't try to use it the first 1 1/2 years I had it. Then wanting to start fresh and get ready for our upcoming trip to Huntington Beach, Calif. and then up the coast to Seattle, hopefully not needing the generator except for charging, I installed four (4) new wetcell 230 amp hour golf cart batteries.
Today I uplugged the shore power and left the inverter running a small fan and the TV for several hours while I went to town, when I came back the idiot lights on the control panel said my batteries were marginal. I turned off the fan and turned on a 12 volt flourescent lite along with the tv and after 3 hours the status lights show normal on the inverter.
It seems to be working, has enough DC input, but won't carry any appreciable load of AC usage.
What do I look for? Bad connections where it ties into the AC power system?
Help
ED
Ed,
1) I'm not sure what remote control type you Heart inverter is set up with. However, I do know that once all dc power is removed from the inverter as in replacing your golf cart batteries, the control panel may need to be reset. This is normally done by simply unplugging and reconnecting the phone wire type connector at the back side of the control panel. Kind of like a reboot. This may not resolve your specific issues but if it were mine I would do that anyway.

2) It sounds like you are describing a larger load is present then just your tv and fan. Are you sure an electric water heater or more likely a refer is not also functioning on the inverter circuits. The remote panel should also display(idiot lites also) DC amps being drawn from the battery banks by the inverter. A tv alone should be running around 140 watts. That should lite up only the lowest one or two lites.
I suggested water heater and /or refrig since they both cycle on and off and could draw battery state down to the marginal level if either or both were on. Certainly they would lite up more then the lowest few lites for dc current.

My rig is set up so all 120 volt circuits except the water heater and both ACs are powered off the inverter when we dry camp. Sometimes I will forget to switch the refer to gas only and that will quickly pull battery state down toward marginal.

Marty
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by RJay View Post
I fail to see your distinction. If a load draws 1800 watts from a 2000 watt inverter with a 90% efficiency the DC power input into the inverter is 2000 watts and 100% of it normal capacity. Therefore the useful load from a 2000 watt inverter is 1800 watts. There's no hocus pocus going on its a simple derating of a piece of equipment, in this case, the inverter. It's simply watts in, watts out minus the efficiency.

You are absolutely right in this post. In the earlier post it was said that with 90 percent efficency his 1800 watt inverter was only capable of 1620 (If I've done the math right) watts.

The inverter is capable of the full 1800 watts, but at that power it will be drawing 2000 off the battery.. That is what 90% efficienc means.

Now with Honda EU generators.. You de-rate the model number

And I don't recall how far. But that's not efficiency, that's mis-leading labeling. Which is not a technical matter... Less you are an attorney (i'm not)
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:41 PM   #23
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Ed,
IMHO, I think your inverter is a bit small. This particular unit was not very popular, at least in the circle of RV'ers I know. It just doesn't seem to want to do what it's advertised to do, as you have found with your coffee maker. As posted earlier, GE and a couple others, make a lower wattage unit. Watch out for the ones that advertise super fast brewing times, these will overload you. As for your Microwave, there are newer technology units out there (Inverter) that slowly ramp up the wattage as opposed to the sudden, all at once, surge.
You asked what Inverters others are running and what they are running off of it. I run an older Heart 20, rated at 2,000VA continuous / 4,500VA surge @ 15 seconds. This is powered by 2 Odyssey PC-1800-FT 12V batteries. (Rated at 475 minutes @ 25A each). My "Normal" day would consist of 1 TV on for anywhere from 2 to 8 hours, Sat box, Fan, Coffee Maker brewing 2 pots and 1 or 2 Microwave uses of up to 5 minutes each. I never run the coffee maker and microwave at the same time, so not sure of the ability to do so. What I have had on at the same time, without an issue, are my 2 TV's (LCD), Sat box, Lap Top and Coffee Maker. I also had on 2 exhaust fans and a few lights, though they pull off 12V, it's still a load on the Battery Bank. I can run for 3 days without having to start up the Generator for a recharge. My fridge runs on LP, and automatically switches to 110V when Gen starts or on shore power. My water Heater is 110V capable, but never switch it off LP unless on shore power.
And just a note, if you consider these batteries be warned. They are well over 100 lbs. each and very large. You will need to be creative on mounting. And all 12V cables are 3/0.
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