Need a battery guru

[deputydog]

I apologize in advance for the long post, but here is all the scoop:

I have two Interstate U2200 6 volt batteries in my MH. The positive post of both is stamped with an "A" "4" and a "Y". Best I understand that means they are January 2004 batteries which makes sense since it is a late model 2004 WH22 chassis.

Several months ago I must have filled them to the bottom of the slot in the fill neck, but they must have been discharged somewhat because one overflowed a few ounces, making a mess in my batt. box. I drained off enough liquid to get the level back down and after several tries got the level stabilized about 1/4" above top of plates.

All has been fine and I seem to have decent capacity, but two cells in the same battery seem to gas off more than others and I constantly have several drops of liquid on the outside top of it.

I just finished doing a normalize charge for two hours and then let them sit 24 hours, then checked with a temp. adjusted hydrometer and digital volt meter. Good battery readings were: 1.324, 1.324 & 1.319 with 6.48 volts. "Problem" battery readings were: 1.315, 1.290 & 1.260 with 6.39 volts. Total voltage = 12.87 volts. Batteries are out of MH with nothing connected to them.

I then hooked them up to MH & with shore power disconnected, turned everything DC (lights/fans/refrig in the MH and the inverter w/one TV & digital converter running. Initial voltage was 12.56 (6.33 volts on good and 6.23 volts on "problem")

After approx. 1 hour the voltage (under same load) was 12.12 volts (6.11 on good and 6.01 on "problem") The specific gravities of the problem battery were: 1.291, 1.276 & 1.241.

I can't decide if the water on the top is from the problem battery being weak and gassing off more or what. I got another set of Speedy Caps and put them on, but can't tell a difference.

I told the Interstate dealer about the water on top and battery age and he of course said "replace them"

That's probably the thing to do, but the one seems in great shape, but I know better than to mix and old one and a new one, so they both gotta go if I do it.

Any thoughts/opinions. The latest FMC mag. says if specific gravity inter-cell variation is more than .05 points the battery is faulty. Mine is 0.055! The hydrometer literature says 20 or more points. Not sure what they mean by that.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Also, if I replace them anybody used the U 2400 to replace the U 2200. Dealer says U2400 is special order. 251 AH vs. 232 AH.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deputydog Also, if I replace them anybody used the U 2400 to replace the U 2200. Dealer says U2400 is special order. 251 AH vs. 232 AH.

On my gas powered motorhome, like yours, I replaced my OE Interstate coach batteries with Trojan batteries. Trojans are sized up to the next larger (24 to 27) group number but same voltage. 2x12 volts. I was on my 2nd set of Interstate batteries. Trojans are holding up well.

[deputydog]

Thanks for the info DriVer - I'll have to check them out

I read that Crown, Deka & Trojan are some of the best "true" deep cycle. I was thinking of Interstate only because they seem to have dealers everywhere in case of a problem. I do a lot of business with our local interstate dealer for my business vehicles. Nothing outstanding, but easy to get replaced if an issue.

I sure do twitch getting rid of a battery that makes the hydrometer nearly pop out the top!

Wrong forum, but heard any more re: bosch/WH brake recall?

[M&EM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deputydog Thanks for the info DriVer - I'll have to check them out I read that Crown, Deka & Trojan are some of the best "true" deep cycle. I was thinking of Interstate only because they seem to have dealers everywhere in case of a problem. I do a lot of business with our local interstate dealer for my business vehicles. Nothing outstanding, but easy to get replaced if an issue. I sure do twitch getting rid of a battery that makes the hydrometer nearly pop out the top! Wrong forum, but heard any more re: bosch/WH brake recall?

DD
Just this week I saw interstate branded deep cycle 6v at Costco at about $75.
FYI
I recently replaced a 7 year old Trojan 105 that was constantly spitting water onto the battery top. I replaced it with a Costco branded deep cycle gc4. My thinking was that if the original Trojan paired with the new gc4 went south in the next year, I could still replace on Costco's one year free replacement and just pair a second new Costco gc4 at that time.

The paired batteries described above seem to be getting along just fine in spite of age differences.
The SG in all cells of each run at 6.34 ±.01 after a 2 hour highway speed charging spell and an overnight maintenance at 13.4V. The other 2 banks of Trojans(also near 6 years old) run about the same SGs with some what higher variances.

I believe longevity of the deep cycles is enhanced with regulated topping off with daily solar power equalization like exposure. And of course proper water maintenance.


Marty

[RVhauler]

It is my understanding that if mineral oil is added to the water in the battery to cover the top of the cells that gassing will be prevented. I know that the orginal batterys in my kountryaire had oil in them. oil does present a problem in getting a specfice gravity reading tho.

[BryanL]

You should get a bit of bubbling when charging. That's good as it keeps the electrolyte mixed and inhibits sulfation.

If you have a cell or two that seems off of the others, run through an equalization cycle as per the Trojan battery manual. If that doesn't fix the problem, consider replacing the battery. But don't get obsessive about small differences.

There are no 'true deep cycle' lead acid batteries. All of them suffer shortened life expectancy when you discharge 'deep'. No brand has any significant life expectancy better than any other when used and maintained properly. Brand isn't much of an issue as RV batteries are a mature technology. Battery life depends mostly upon proper use and maintenance. Expect 4 to 7 years for lead acid batteries (per NAWS FAQ).

Get batteries from a reputable retailer who sells a lot to folks who use them like you do and will stand behind the warranties he offers. Use objective criteria like warranty, battery specifications, and cost. Avoid subjective, undefined, and marketing hype such as 'true deep cycle' or 'golf cart' or other such truck.

Do check the battery manual for proper procedure in maintaining electrolyte level. If you have a good multiple stage charger with a maintenance mode that uses some desulfation technique, your batteries should not need much attention such as checking water levels. No matter the brand, fluid level problems indicate either charging device problems or a battery that needs replacement.

Specific gravity measuring is a hazmat activity. It really isn't necessary for most RV needs. It does present the potential for cell contamination as well as the acid splattering and spilling hazard. It, like voltage, needs to be measured and interpreted with appropriate consideration for conditions.

Do be aware of the fact that precision of many battery measures is way above any realistic accuracy of that measure. Temperature, cycle to cycle variance, age, use profiles and other things can each vary by 10 to 20 percent.

Daily charging with the usual, rather weak, solar system can reduce battery life. The reasons are that such systems usually don't exercise the battery properly, don't provide a proper vigorous charge, and don't provide any desulfation technique. Systems that depend upon float voltage for maintenance often overcharge (and boil off water and corrode plates) or undercharge (and sulfate the battery).

[deputydog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer On my gas powered motorhome, like yours, I replaced my OE Interstate coach batteries with Trojan batteries. Trojans are sized up to the next larger (24 to 27) group number but same voltage. 2x12 volts. I was on my 2nd set of Interstate batteries. Trojans are holding up well.

DriVer: Why did you go with 12V instead of 6V? I think the 6V is more durable and you get more AH capacity, although if one goes out and you only have two you SOL.

[deputydog]

Been doing lots of research on new batteries including Energizer EGC2 ($73 at Sam's Club), Trojan T105, 125 & 145, Interstate U 2200 & 2400, and Crown CR225, 235 & 245.

Hard to find cost of other than Interstate and Energizer and shipping can be a huge cost for just 2 batteries.

Interesting that among all the brands the case sizes and more importantly the weight are almost identical. Some tout that they contain more lead than any other brand, yet other brands are heavier for the same capacity. I don't think the plastic case weighs that much, so I wonder how much hype is out there on the "better" brands.

The Energizers are built by Johnson Controls - says so right on the label, but you can't find any specs. on them. The price sticker at Sam's says 220 AH capacity. I suppose I need to get a scale and go in and weigh one! I bet it's right in there at 62 pounds like all the others. Johnson Controls is one of the largest battery manufacturers so I find it hard to believe they are garbage and full replacement one year warranty.

Heck, we all want to be able to stop and park in Walmart parking lots for the night - wonder if we should buy all our batteries from them? Other than Interstate, I have to make a minimum of 100 mile round trip to get any of the others. Hummmmmmmmmmm....................

[BryanL]

re: "I think the 6V is more durable and you get more AH capacity" -- take the measure and you'll find voltage has nothing to do with durability or capacity.

Durability is a trade-off with cost and capacity and the range really isn't that large between the three.

Capacity is about 22 watt hours per pound for lead acid batteries of any sort or voltage commonly used in RV's. Again, only minor variance and not related to voltage.

With batteries, go by what you can actually measure. Things like the spec sheet, warranty, and cost. I suggest you buy batteries from a retailer who sells a lot to folks that use them like you do and will stand behind his warranty.

re: "Interesting that among all the brands the case sizes and more importantly the weight are almost identical." -- well, there are a lot of sizes and you can get batteries ranging from about 50# to more than 200. But what this observation really says is that lead acid battery manufacturing is a fairly mature technology and the batteries we have available for our RV's are all pretty well optimized for that sort of service.

[RVhauler]

Deputydog- I use Walmart batteries in both tow truck/5er (I know some think they are junk) and have had good luck for the most part with them. Did have one battery leak on the truck and they replaced both batterys (diesel) under warranty without problem. On the road a lot and can get replacement battery almost anywhere in US/Canada with out the hassle of trying to locate a dealer in a strange town.

[deputydog]

Well the last straw in my decision was a request for warranty information that I sent to Trojan after looking all over their website for that info. I had been leaning toward the Trojans.

The warranty info for their solar series batteries is shown, but not for the T-105/125/145 series.

All I asked was a simple question - what is the warranty on those batteries. I wish I had the email response here, but basically it was 3 or 4 paragraphs telling me that I needed to get that info from the dealer that I bought my batteries from and oh yeah, THE DEALER COULD TEST THE BATTERY TO SEE IF IT ACTUALLY HAD A MANUFACTURING DEFECT. I was asking a pre-purchase question, not trying to file a warranty claim.

I can just imagine how that process might pan out. I just spent $800 plus to put new DEFECTIVE calipers on my WH chassis since new GOOD ones are still not available. I remember all those "you need to grease the slide pins, change the fluid" etc. and now they say none of that would have prevented the failures. Might get the same treatment from Trojan.

Well, since there is no Trojan dealer here in Gainesville I'd have to find a dealer and then contact them.

WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT SAYING 3 MONTHS OR 6 MONTHS OR WHATEVER THE WARRANTY IS! Sounds like they don't want to commit to an answer to me. Why should a consumer have to run down a dealer. If the manufacturer can't tell me, I don't need to buy there product! What kind of run around would you get if you needed to make a claim. NO THANKS!

Went to Sam's Club - for $ 158.27 I got two 220 amp Energizer GC2 batteries - Trojan says theirs is 225 amp - the Energizers weigh 62 pounds - I weighed them - Trojan specs say the T105 weighs 62 pounds! The Energizers are made by Johnson Controls per the label.

Interstate wanted $94.95 per U2200 (232 amp) that weighs 62 pounds!
I asked about the U2400 (251 amp) - they wanted $180 each for them and a special order item. Interstate warranty is 6 months.

My harping on the weight is because the amount of lead in a battery reflects on the quality of the battery. Really cheap batteries weigh less. Leaving out lead saves $$$. With the Trojan, Interstate and Energizer weighing the same, there is probably little difference in them other than the plate spacer material.

I figure I got probably an equivalent battery for considerably less price with a no nonsense warranty twice as long as others and they let us overnight in most of their parking lots. Hummmmmmmmmm.....

We'll see how they hold up.

[deputydog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanL re: "I think the 6V is more durable and you get more AH capacity" -- take the measure and you'll find voltage has nothing to do with durability or capacity. that large between the three. Capacity is about 22 watt hours per pound for lead acid batteries of any sort or voltage commonly used in RV's. Again, only minor variance and not related to voltage. With batteries, go by what you can actually measure. Things like the spec sheet, warranty, and cost. I suggest you buy batteries from a retailer who sells a lot to folks that use them like you do and will stand behind his warranty. re: "Interesting that among all the brands the case sizes and more importantly the weight are almost identical." -- well, there are a lot of sizes and you can get batteries ranging from about 50# to more than 200. But what this observation really says is that lead acid battery manufacturing is a fairly mature technology and the batteries we have available for our RV's are all pretty well optimized for that sort of service.

I have to disagree with you, based on my experience. Battery voltage has a lot to do with durability when talking of conventional 6 volt vs. 12 volt batteries in common MH sizes. You have to put a lot more plates (3 cells vs. 6 cells in a shorter box to make a 12 volt battery. closing spacing means they can short out easier. There's a good reason you don't see lots of golf carts with 12 volt batteries.

[bdaball]

Be careful on weight. Manfactures have been know to use "filler plates" to bring up their weights. Make sure what you are weighing are active plates and not fillers.

Mineral oil is a very good method to minimize gassing given the usual battery life in a Motor home. 1-2 oz is most you should use per cell.

[hamguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdaball Be careful on weight. Manfactures have been know to use "filler plates" to bring up their weights. Make sure what you are weighing are active plates and not fillers.

Why on earth would a manufacturer take the time, expense and possibility of long prison terms to add plates without hooking them up? Besides, what purchaser weighs the battery as a check for quality? And how can you tell if the plates are connected?