Community Forums

"007" · 12-15-2010, 08:25 AM

This picture shows someone's fire and extinguisher didn't help link still in place.

Others have placed the extinguisher standing up near & aimed toward the burner and high enough for electric elements, no one I see who will be right until a fire happens to prove or disprove where it should be placed.

The fire where ever it happens is going to act like Christmas tree branches placed in your fire place its going to go off like a jet engine up through the vent area most heat at top of vent area.

Take alook at this post & pictures: post

Sammie · 12-15-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "007"

One question when the Halon gas comes out of sprinkler head will it have enough force to spray the gas down to mid point of vent area where fire may have started?
The heat of fire is going to force all heat and gas up through upper vent area.
Thanks for your input Sammie we need something because these band-aides, "recalls", will fail eventually.

Yet another good question. I believe that it's not necessarily the force of the halon gas , but the volumn of gas released. What halon gas does is eliminate the oxygen needed for combustion to continue thus snuffing out the fire. The trigger or fusible link on the head needs to be where the heat collects in the event of a fire (near the top of the fridge) not at the bottom where cool air is being drawn in.

Sammie

akadeadeye · 12-15-2010, 05:51 PM

In talking with Jim at firefight1 he said the SS-30 was capable of extinguishing fire in, I believe, a 40 cubic foot area. I could be remembering wrong about the amount of cf, but, he said it was more than enough capacity for what is behind the refrigerator. If that is true, does it matter if it is on the top or the bottom?

Granted, if on the bottom, some halon will be expelled through the vent cover access panel, or if on the top some would be expelled through the roof vent, but would that be enough to matter when the force of the extinguisher goes off it seems it would take the path and space of least resistance and go in every direction, including up, down, and all around?

We're talking about, what, 8 to 10 inches by 6 ft. by 3 ft.

That would be about 18 cubic feet. Not much of an area to be concerned about where you place it, I think.

Don

akadeadeye · 12-15-2010, 05:53 PM

However, after posting the above, the picture posted by 007 of the bottom mount with a fire having started above without the extinguisher going off is a bit of a concern.

Do we know for sure that that extinguisher did not go off?

Don

Sammie · 12-15-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akadeadeye

However, after posting the above, the picture posted by 007 of the bottom mount with a fire having started above without the extinguisher going off is a bit of a concern.

Do we know for sure that that extinguisher did not go off?

Don

I would say that the extinguisher did not go off. If you look at the picture, all the fire and heat was at the top of the fridge. This is where the trigger or fusible link needs to be located in order to function as designed.

Sammie

Mopar1973Man · 12-17-2010, 06:44 PM

I'm going to add my 2 cents here...

I've worked with the local fire dept for over 5 years... What we got here is a standard chimnet effect if the fire starts at the bottom near the flue tube the rising heat will force the fire upwards as fresh air (cold) will enter at the bottom. This why the pic above the halon didn't fire. Because as the fire grew the heat travelled upwards and the cool air started rushing inward at the access panel.

So in my opinion the only way to make the Halon go off for sure is mount it at the top...

Sammie · 12-17-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mopar1973Man

I'm going to add my 2 cents here...

I've worked with the local fire dept for over 5 years... What we got here is a standard chimnet effect if the fire starts at the bottom near the flue tube the rising heat will force the fire upwards as fresh air (cold) will enter at the bottom. This why the pic above the halon didn't fire. Because as the fire grew the heat travelled upwards and the cool air started rushing inward at the access panel.

So in my opinion the only way to make the Halon go off for sure is mount it at the top...

I agree 100%. The only way that the fusible link on the halon bottle will fire off is if it is located where the heat from the fire is concentrated. At the top of the fridge.

Please talk to your buddies at the fire dept and see at what temperature the halon extinguisher should go off.

Sammie

"007" · 12-17-2010, 07:14 PM

Don, this thread discussed the fire where the extinguisher didn't go off.
Has given the poster thoughts that maybe he might need to place another extinguisher up in upper vent area.

SCVJeff · 12-23-2010, 01:07 AM

I already have an SS-30 down low, but after seeing the upper fire I'm going over tomorrow to measure for an SS-25 up top. i wouldn't worry about which way the head is facing, there will be enough volume out of either of them so flood the compartment.

Mopar1973Man · 12-23-2010, 07:02 AM

Next time you walk into a larger super market or mall (WalMart) tell me do you ever find the sprinkler system on the floor?

What are the basics of escaping a fire? Get on all 4 and crawl along the floor becaue there is more cool fresh air there...

Why is that USFS will never put people at the top of a ridge fire? (Chimney effect - Very Dangerous)

Point I'm making is the heat of a fire will always travel up... So if your fire suspression is going to be trigger its got to be mounted above the fire...

SCVJeff · 12-23-2010, 11:14 AM

This is a completely different animal. We aren't talking about a warehouse, we're talking about an extremely confined space, and the point of this game is to kill the fire ASAP. If walmart knew exactly where a fire was going to stArt, don't you think they'd do the same?

Mopar1973Man · 12-23-2010, 11:29 AM

Not really... There is a simple rule no one can change...

Heat will always rise.

So if your trigger is low to the floor the air will always be cooler so hence may or may not trigger like in the pictured RV... Because the RV pictured had it mounted low in the access so as the fire started it started convection of heat rising also drawing in plenty of fresh cold air at the bottom keeping the trigger from tripping...

But put your trigger high in the chimney area it will have a better chance of triggering quicker but it will always trigger to a fire regardless of where it starts...

So if the fire started mid way up the chimney you would have to wait for the fire to drop fire brands into the bottom and ignite some materials low and get hot enough to trigger the halon...

The only reason sprinklers are always at the ceiling level is because this guarantees that they would be tripped... Remember heat rises...

A litte more info...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_e...t_in_buildings

SCVJeff · 12-24-2010, 01:59 AM

Just because you see sprinklers in the ceiling doesn't mean anything; Where else would they go in a store, across every shelf?

So once again, this is a REALLY small and enclosed area, and the whole point is to kill the fire at it's source, correct? With apparently one yet unexplained exception it seems to be well known where these are starting, so why would you put a trigger 4' away? By the time this trips the smoke damage will probably total the rig anyway.

Something else to ponder.. I just finished a television studio with over 30 racks sitting on a 2'" depressed slab, and every rack has a 24"x36" opening on the bottom causing the depressed area to be totally exposed to the sprinklers above with no more than 24" covered anywhere in the room. So why is it that I have a totally separate sprinkler system under the floor if your contention is correct that we should just stick the sprinklers on the ceiling, get out the chair and wait until the heat finally trips one? I have $30 million in this room. Don't you think it's kind of important to minimize the damage?

Granted that if cost no object, there should be something up top as a backup. But it's well known where these things fail most of the time. I have my big Halon bottle down low and will probably put one much smaller up top, BUT it's not the one that will trip if the classic failure occurs.

mikron · 12-24-2010, 06:07 AM

[QUOTE=Sammie;752428]I've installed many halon systems in computer rooms where the actual sprinkler system heads used were installed in the ceiling. The halon containers were stored in a seperate room and then connected to the sprinkler heads with normal piping. When a fire is detected, the system trips and halon gas is discharged thru all the heads at once filling the entire room with the gas and extinguishing the fire. We had to test a halon system by setting a trash can on fire and allowing the system to trip. It was a pretty neat test to witness.

Hi sammie, I am in the fire sprinkler business also for 46 years as an owner/designer. In the computer rooms you installed the Halon the rooms were self contained. So at the ceiling or at the floor the room was contained. Your fridge and engine area are NOT contained. I don't think you can get the percentage you need of the Halon gas to put out a fire and you have a fan working against you. Also halon was banned in 1999 and by 2003 was not allowed to be used except in airplanes and the military. The Halon in the extinguishers you can buy are from overseas. They buy the old Halon that is banned in the US.