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On Demand water heaters?
Old 09-16-2011, 12:18 AM   #1
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My wife and I have just purchased our first camper. We can't get adjusted to only taking a five minute shower lol! Would it be possible to switch your water heater over to an on demand system?

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Old 09-16-2011, 04:51 AM   #2
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No reason you can't that I can see but for an electric unit large enough to do the job you are looking at about 15 to 25 amps power draw. The gas ones have a fairly large venting requirement.

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Old 09-16-2011, 09:30 AM   #3
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There are adjustments needed when you enter the camping world.

If you have both electric and propane heat on your water heater, if you haven't already done so, turn both on when taking a shower. This may help.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:24 PM   #4
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I hear what you are saying about five minute showers. I can't function in the morning until I've had a minumum of a 30 minute shower.

It is possible to switch over to an on demand water heater (more commonly referred to as tankless). There are several caveats, however.

First, units designed for stick and brick homes are not designed for use in RVs due to vibration, venting, and fire concerns (the latter has to do with clearances required). The electric ones draw too much and even if gas fired, they may not be rejettable to propane. Using one in an RV, and, in many cases, a mobile home, will usually void the warranty. When spending that kind of money, voiding the warranty is not a good thing.

There are several kinds of diesel fueled water heaters available but those are usually seen in motor homes that run on diesel fuel and are pretty bulky. They are usually part of a hydronic heating system. You didn't say what kind of a camper you have but since you called it a camper, I suspect it is a fiver on down to a small travel trailer. The diesel units would be far too bulky for those plus you would have to lug around an extra fuel supply just for the water water supply. They are also seriously expensive.

The only other tankless water heaters approved for use in RVs are the propane fired Girards and Precision Temp RV500s. The Girards have the advantages of costing about half of what the RV5009s cost and will fit in the same hole as a 6 gallon tank type water heater does (they carry doors that will allow them to fit in the same hole as a 10 gallon tank type water heater). Because of their lower cost, they are the ones some RV manufacturers are putting in their rigs.

However, they are not very popular because of the way they operate. They do put out plenty of unlimited hot water suitable for endless showers (as long as the water holds out; I saw one demonstrated at an RV show earlier this year and it put out more than enough hot water to satisfy me). However, to keep cost and size down, Girard designed their unit as simple as possible. It lacks the sophisticated temperature controls other units have. The gas valve is not continuously variable so it only puts out a steady amount of heat. Instead of mixing hot and cold water at the tap to regulate water temperature, one has to turn on only the hot water and vary the water flow. The faster the water flow, the lower the water temperature.

The RV500 is twice as expensive as the Girard (neither is inexpensive) but uses more sophisticated temperature controls and a variable gas valve to give the outgoing water a reasonably consistant water temperature. One regulates water temperature at the tap by mixing hot and cold water, the same way as one does with a tank type water heater. The downside of the RV500, other than the added initial expense, is it only fits in the same opening formerly occupied by a 10 gallon water heater. To use it where there formerly was a 6 gallon water heater, one would have to reframe the opening. Whether this is possible depends on if there is room and on how the wall is constructed.

A downside to both of these units is they run only on propane. Many tank type water heaters run on propane and/or 120v. If you do a lot of short term camping where the charge for electricity is a flat rate per night, you would not be able to take advantage of the "free" electricity and would be forced to shell out for the propane you will use instead. Besides from longer showers, you may have to use water at a slightly faster rate since a minimum flow of water is required before the units turn on. The Girard is especially sensitive to this and may require removing flow control devices from the camper's water system.

Both units offer the advantage of endless hot water for as long as the water lasts (duh!). If one is already burning only propane, both units will burn less of it than the tank types since they do not have to run frequently to keep a tank of water hot. The less hot water one uses, the more economical the tankless units are to use. This is more of an advantage when boondocking for extended periods when one needs to conserve propane. Due to the high initial cost, it would take a rather long time, if ever, to realize any payback from reduced propane usage when switching to a tankless unit.

Of course, the single best reason for switching to a tankless water heater is unlimited hot water. For many of us, that alone will justify the initial expense of the unit.
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:38 AM   #5
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You should look into an exotherm model tank type or convert your tank type to an exotherm. It heats the water to a much higher temp and then mixes it with cold when used to provide much more hot water.

We had the RV500 tankless installed in our previous Bounder and are much happier with the high temp tank with mixing valve. I can take a pretty long shower without running out of hot water.
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Old 09-17-2011, 12:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
...We had the RV500 tankless installed in our previous Bounder and are much happier with the high temp tank with mixing valve. I can take a pretty long shower without running out of hot water.
Why are you happier with the exotherm than you were with the RV500 (I'm not trying to be a smart aleck; I'm really curious and it could affect my decision on what to get when I get my TT)? Do you have any links to exotherm units or how to convert to one?
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Old 09-18-2011, 05:33 AM   #7
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When you take a shower and adjust the temp to your liking, the temp of the shower water needs to stay there or change slowly enough as the water heater is depleted so that you can adjust the knobs.

With the RV500 the slightest change in water flow would create a large change in water temp. Turning on an electric appliance elsewere in the coach and the corresponding voltage drop to the water pump was enough to upset its balance. If the wind blew AT ALL while in use, it upset the temp controller. The heater is trying to maintain a delicate balance between gas flow to the burner, water flow and water exit temp. Three variables, one control point. Its a diffecult control strategy and for steady state works well enough. In the 5 yrs I owned the RV500 I had very few satisfying showers. For washing dishes it was fine.

It also runs on propane only. Finding and refilling propane tanks is PIA. The fewer times I have to arrange that the better. There are no electric tankless units for RVs, simply not enought power available.

Here is a link to the Atwood XT heater:

Atwood XT Exothermal Water Heater on Sale - PPL Motor Homes

You can convert an existing Atwood tank type by adding a mixing valve and new thermostats. This is what we did with the WH that came in our Damon. WOrks very well. The water is stored at approx 180 deg but comes to the faucet at about 120 and very steady temp.
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Old 09-18-2011, 06:48 AM   #8
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jcthorne- Very good idea, I never heard of this before. I'm satisfied with my standard heater but if I feel the need in the future, I'll get one. Thanks for the post!
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Old 09-18-2011, 11:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
...With the RV500 the slightest change in water flow would create a large change in water temp. Turning on an electric appliance elsewere in the coach and the corresponding voltage drop to the water pump was enough to upset its balance. If the wind blew AT ALL while in use, it upset the temp controller. The heater is trying to maintain a delicate balance between gas flow to the burner, water flow and water exit temp. Three variables, one control point. Its a diffecult control strategy and for steady state works well enough. In the 5 yrs I owned the RV500 I had very few satisfying showers. For washing dishes it was fine.

It also runs on propane only. Finding and refilling propane tanks is PIA. The fewer times I have to arrange that the better. There are no electric tankless units for RVs, simply not enought power available...
Thanks for the link!

Are you sure the unit you had was an RV500 and not a Girard? The performance you reported is typical of the reports I've seen from users of the Girard but I've never seen reports of the RV500 that matched your's.

I agree about the propane only issue which is why I was curious about the XTs.

While it's on my feeble mind, which size water heater do you have, how long of a shower can you take, and how long is recovery using electricity only?
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:40 PM   #10
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One other consideration of the RV500 is operation when it's below freezing. If the temps don't get lower than the 20's, the system works ok as it will periodically heat the water in the unit to avoid freezing. If it gets colder than that, you risk freezing as the unit apparently can't keep up with the colder temps. (check the manual for specifics)
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Old 09-18-2011, 10:53 PM   #11
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One other consideration of the RV500 is operation when it's below freezing. If the temps don't get lower than the 20's, the system works ok as it will periodically heat the water in the unit to avoid freezing. If it gets colder than that, you risk freezing as the unit apparently can't keep up with the colder temps. (check the manual for specifics)
I have no intention of living anywhere that gets colder than the 20s. However, I read the manual and all it says is it will protect itself in freezing conditions but if one is going to operate in those conditions for extended periods, use the Cold Weather Package. According to one website that sells the RV500 (PrecisionTemp RV 500 Recreational Vehicle Propane Gas Tankless Water Heater (LP). RV 500 on demand hot water heater), the Cold Weather Package protects down to -10F and includes the High Wind Package. I had already planned on getting the Cold Weather Package just in case a freak hard freeze sneaks up on me. Since the unit would set between two slides, the High Wind Package would have been a necessity anyway.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFitz... View Post
Thanks for the link!

Are you sure the unit you had was an RV500 and not a Girard? The performance you reported is typical of the reports I've seen from users of the Girard but I've never seen reports of the RV500 that matched your's.

I agree about the propane only issue which is why I was curious about the XTs.

While it's on my feeble mind, which size water heater do you have, how long of a shower can you take, and how long is recovery using electricity only?

I am very sure we had the RV500. Installed it myself which was no small task as it required surgery of the outside skin and cabinetry. Our current atwood that has been retrofitted with a mixing valve is a 6 gallon unit. We also added the electric as it was a gas only unit as installed.

Our RV500 also had the high wind kit installed which consists of a muffin fan in the exaust port to help steady the burner in high winds. It helps but does not completely fix the problem. The burner area is pretty much exposed to wind through the vents.

It was about $1k that we wished we had not spent.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:47 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
I am very sure we had the RV500. Installed it myself which was no small task as it required surgery of the outside skin and cabinetry. Our current atwood that has been retrofitted with a mixing valve is a 6 gallon unit. We also added the electric as it was a gas only unit as installed.

Our RV500 also had the high wind kit installed which consists of a muffin fan in the exaust port to help steady the burner in high winds. It helps but does not completely fix the problem. The burner area is pretty much exposed to wind through the vents.

It was about $1k that we wished we had not spent.
Back to the Atwood, how long of showers can you take and how long does it take to recover on electricity only?
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:00 AM   #14
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I usually use the park shower, HOwever if your water heater is both gas and electric turn both switches on and you may find the recovery rate is longer.

Also, if your shower head does not have a cut off valve, you can get one at Lowes or Home Depot or .. The usuall places that compete with them.. This is a 1/2 inch valve that goes "in-line" in the off position water dripps slowly (it's not a perfect off usually) but this gives it a bit more recovery time while you soap up.

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