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Old 09-19-2018, 05:50 AM   #1
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Whole Coach Inverter?

My "new" motorhome is a 2017 Thor Freedom Elite 23H with the standard stuff:
30 Amp service
Onan 4.0KW Generator
WF8955 Converter, 30A AC, 55A DC
40" LED TV
13.5K BTU rooftop A/C
Elec/Propane fridge, 6 CF
The first thing I did when I bought it was add a second marine battery and an A-B-Both switch.

After our last trip, we decided we need a pure sine 3500 Watt (9000 peak) Inverter for:
Coffee Pot
TV
WiFi
Laptops
Sewing Machine
Toaster
Fridge (when moving down the road)
maybe even a short burst on the A/C occasionally
But, I really don't want to install any new outlets or dedicate any of my existing outlets to Inverter use. It would be much more convenient if I could wire a new Inverter into the system permanently so it could service all the AC outlets.

I haven't yet done the calculations or looked at the schematics or called any of the appliance vendors for advice. I'm just brainstorming at this point.

A few things that occur to me:
> the inverter would necessarily be on 100% of the time unless I opened the run/store relay
> how much power does an inverter draw when there is no load on it?
> we would have to be very aware of our AC use
> we would need a way to monitor battery levels
> might need a third or fourth battery
> how to get it to automatically shut off when running the generator or connecting to shore power
> will need to add a switch on the Norcold for when we want to force it into propane use
None of these seem difficult to overcome.
Where am I going to run into problems?
What have I not considered?
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:18 AM   #2
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Getting an inverter to run everything in the motorhome is no problem. The weight of the battery storage is the big problem. For example a 100 ah group 27 battery will have 600 watt hrs of power at 50% discharged. So you would be able to run the air conditioner for about 20 minutes then have to run the generator for 4hrs to recharge the battery.

With the proper inverter , you can connect it to shore power & generator power ,then connect the coach to the inverter. The inverter will the be able to charge the batteries and run the coach from either power source automatically ,then switch to inverter mode if power is lost.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:25 AM   #3
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There is a guy on you tube with a 48ft custom travel trailer look.at his inverter setup. He uses four of the 4400 watt inverters and a Chevy volt battery. Only thing he uses shore power for is to charge batteries.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soppy View Post

With the proper inverter , you can connect it to shore power & generator power ,then connect the coach to the inverter. The inverter will the be able to charge the batteries and run the coach from either power source automatically ,then switch to inverter mode if power is lost.
Not unless it has an integrated converter as well and he removes his current converter. Otherwise the converter will try to charge the batteries when the inverter is being powered by the batteries.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:40 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WileyOne View Post
My "new" motorhome is a 2017 Thor Freedom Elite 23H with the standard stuff:
30 Amp service
Onan 4.0KW Generator
WF8955 Converter, 30A AC, 55A DC
40" LED TV
13.5K BTU rooftop A/C
Elec/Propane fridge, 6 CF
The first thing I did when I bought it was add a second marine battery and an A-B-Both switch.

After our last trip, we decided we need a pure sine 3500 Watt (9000 peak) Inverter for:
Coffee Pot
TV
WiFi
Laptops
Sewing Machine
Toaster
Fridge (when moving down the road)
maybe even a short burst on the A/C occasionally
But, I really don't want to install any new outlets or dedicate any of my existing outlets to Inverter use. It would be much more convenient if I could wire a new Inverter into the system permanently so it could service all the AC outlets.

I haven't yet done the calculations or looked at the schematics or called any of the appliance vendors for advice. I'm just brainstorming at this point.

A few things that occur to me:
> the inverter would necessarily be on 100% of the time unless I opened the run/store relay
> how much power does an inverter draw when there is no load on it?
> we would have to be very aware of our AC use
> we would need a way to monitor battery levels
> might need a third or fourth battery
> how to get it to automatically shut off when running the generator or connecting to shore power
> will need to add a switch on the Norcold for when we want to force it into propane use
None of these seem difficult to overcome.
Where am I going to run into problems?
What have I not considered?
Inverters are normally wired directly to the battery (through a fuse) not through the USE/STORE relay.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:00 AM   #6
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Ideally, you need a 30 amp transfer switch on the inverter and a sub-panel or, altrenatively, a new Converter/Inverter combination with a 30 amp transfer switch. That way when the unit sees shore power it will automatically switch off the load to the inverter. When there is no shore power it will switch off the converter section and run the inverter.

Battery capacity is another thing entirely. You will never have enough and will need to manage your usage. A good SOC meter like a Trimetric or Victron will give you the information that you need.

Unfortunately, you have a combination distribution panel/converter. You are going to have to find a way to disconnect the converter while, at the same time, powering the panel from the inverter. The converter is hard wired and this feed needs to be moved to the Shore/Generator side of the inverter transfer switch.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:55 AM   #7
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Forget the AC and go with a PSW 2000 watt inverter.

I just added a PS 1000 watt to my 2017 Axis.

Since I had the ProWatt 1000 inverter, and it doesn't have a pass thru switch, I used a spare 30 amp ATS I had.
The Xantrex ProWatt inverters have the lowest idle current draw that I've found, .6 amps.
Some inverters can draw up to 4 amps at idle. That's 96 AH a day.

I pulled the wires off the 2 breakers labled for " Receptcals " and " GFCI " and ran them both to the load side of a 30amp ATS.

The ATS generator input comes from what was the receptacle breaker and the has/electric fridge got a new line to the GFCI breaker ( keeps it off the inverter ).
Gas/electric fridges draw 3 to 5 amps @120 volts, when on shore power. That's 30 to 50 amps@12 volts DC, thru an inverter. That's a battery killer if you forget to switch it to gas while dry camping.

The inverter supply goes to the " Shore power " side of the ATS. That way the inverter isn't the priority input. When shore power goes away, the ATS defaults to shore power mode and the inverter kicks in. ( I turned off the 30 second delay )

Now while dry camping, all of the outlets, regular and GFCI, are on the inverter. I can watch all 3 TVs, make coffee, run a mixer and charge our phones.

The AC, Microwave, Converter and Fridge are on seperate breakers so they will only power up with Shore or Generator power.

The last step is pulling out the 2 brand new GP 24, 42 AH batteries and shoe horning 2 GP 31, 105 AH batteries in. The tray will not take my taller GC 2, 6 volt batteries.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
...I pulled the wires off the 2 breakers labled for " Receptcals " and " GFCI " and ran them both to the load side of a 30amp ATS.

The ATS generator input comes from what was the receptacle breaker...
Agree on the Xantrex low power consumption. Only thing that is less than ideal is that all of your outlets are now powered from the single 15 or 20 amp "outlet" breaker in your panel, but this is the only way to power them all without using two separate transfers switches. It is unclear if this would comply with the NEC, since kitchens usually have dedicated breakers. But I am sure it will work well.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:49 AM   #9
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Im not seeing the point of changing all this stuff around so you can run your air conditioner for 20 minutes, then run the genny for four hours to charge the batteries. Why not just forget it, and run the genny. Problem solved. To each their own, but rvs have enough issues and problems without trying to re-engineer the entire electrical system. Its your rv, but Im in the crowd of, "if it aint broke, dont fix it".
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:56 AM   #10
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Im not seeing the point of changing all this stuff around so you can run your air conditioner for 20 minutes, then run the genny for four hours to charge the batteries. Why not just forget it, and run the genny. Problem solved. To each their own, but rvs have enough issues and problems without trying to re-engineer the entire electrical system. Its your rv, but Im in the crowd of, "if it aint broke, dont fix it".
Completely agree. Run the genny to power the AC, rather than for 4 hours to partially recharge the batteries after running them on battery for 20 minutes.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:07 AM   #11
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YEP, from an electric standpoint, it can be done. How much $$$$$ are you willing to spend? Don't forget to include the cost of a hitch and a trailer to haul the extra batteries. Doable? by all means. Practical? Not so much.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:12 AM   #12
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Even my multi $100,000 rig doesn't run any of the heat pumps off the inverter. It was an option though. But it was expensive as they added a second 3000 watt PSW inverter and 2 more (total of 6) 12 volt 8D AGM batteries giving 1530 amp hours at the standard 20 amp rate. Each battery weighs 160#'s so almost 1000#'s.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:19 AM   #13
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As others have said, it just doesn't make sense to run an AC off batteries since it takes at least 4 to 8 times as much generator time to try to re-charge the bank.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:55 AM   #14
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My little MH is very similar to yours and I just went through the same exercise. The battery tray only has room for 2 batteries for a total of 200ish usable (50% drain) Amp Hours. At 1500 watts (coffee pot), I could make a pot of coffee and then run the generator for an hour to refill the batteries for later. The microwave could only run 40 minutes before consuming the 200 amps. Forget about running the air conditioner for any beneficial time.


However, I did want passengers to be able to use various low power electronics (TV, Laptop, phone charging) and settled on an 800 watt inverter that I doubt will ever pay for itself versus just running the generator.
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