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Old 07-25-2019, 06:33 PM   #1
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Break even or pay for itself solar, boondocking fulltime?

OK I digress.. Ill never sell my other low tax bug out property in the sticks, but I plan on spending 10 months a year snowbirding all over the country in a narrow track 16' cargo trailer converted to mini toyhauler after I retire in 5 years. Then return home for 2 months to fix everything I broke.

But I'm all over the place in indecision regarding the cheapest way to power it. Not cheap as in buying the lowest price item which I rarely do.. Cheap as in, long term operating costs..

I could go propane and run my honda genny one hour a day for my morning microwaved oatmeal and to top off batteries like Ive done before. Or I'm also reading about diesel powered appliances since I drive diesel, but I cant find a diesel powered fridge, and they don't perform well at high altitudes anyway, but are twice as efficient (dollar wise) as propane. More btu's per dollar.

But back to solar.. Would a solar power system eventually pay for itself with saved propane and genny gas if lived in it 8 months a year in a mild climate that doesn't require heat or AC? Solar powering everything, so I don't need propane or a generator?

Or is solar more for convenience and conversation/bragging rights?

Thanks!
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:46 PM   #2
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Obviously, you'll need the sun to help!! Seriously, depending on how much solar you invest in, it could be all you need if your elec needs are moderate. Don't expect to run microwave and coffee maker and battery charger with anything other than a large converter!! Gen is always nice as backup or for heavy loads.

We have 450W and haven't used the generator for the past year and half. If we need it, it's with us. BUT we don't use m/wave and make coffee on stove!! All else is 12V as needed. Always seem to have enough sun even here in the Pacific NW to make it through the day and night. As to costs, more stuff, more money as you know!!!
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:49 PM   #3
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Maybee by the time you retire... solar will be cheaper but for today, the propane will serve you for running a limited generator for your A.C. or any other electric appliance, like a microwave !
If you don't need any of those, just buy a tent and a vehicule to carry your camping gear.
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Old 07-25-2019, 08:15 PM   #4
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There's a lot of moving parts to the problem that aren't initially apparent. One often overlooked is the overhead of batteries. They're expensive to buy, degrade with use, and ultimately expire requiring replacement. There are secondary costs for lost opportunity (what other stuff you could spend that money on), the space they require and the weight. With a genset you run it when you need it and that's it, but with solar you're OK until there's clouds or darkness, then you may have to shed loads or change your habits to accommodate. Do you want to park in the sun and bake all day just so your panels work? Portable panels solve that problem but that's more stuff to haul out, set up and manage. Solar die-hards don't mind this a bit and maybe you don't either, but it's a consideration. So before you get too far down this road consider what the mission is - to see/do whatever it is while you're boondocking, or to play power engineer and be playing with the systems to run your stuff. Solar does work and you can throw enough money to solve any power situation but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket unless my goal was to operate a solar powered rig.

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Old 07-25-2019, 10:14 PM   #5
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I have been using solar since 2009 first on a 5x8 cargo trailer for hauling astronomy and camping gear to off grid astronomy events. I put in 240 watts of solar, furnace, fantastic fan, inverter, pair of Trojan T105 batteries, lighting, insulation, side window and side door. Worked great but a bit tight for two people sharing a 54 inch wide mattress. I also had an
Engel DC freezer that worked well with a cooler. I would keep the stuff I wanted hard frozen in the Engel and also use it to freeze water bottles. The frozen water bottle moved to the cooler for drinking after they thawed and kept the other food cold in the cooler.

The 240 watts gave me enough power for everything I needed but I didn't have to power an air conditioner. I had a couple of 12 volt personal evaporative coolers and so 12 volt fans. I loved never having to listen to a generator charging up my batteries. My neighbors also loved this and I would occasionally charger some other astronomers batteries since I often had plenty of excess power by noon. The batteries were still going strong after eight years of use because I took care to watch the water levels and the smart MPPT charge controller kept the batteries fully charged every day. My neighbor bought the 5x8 trailer and hasn't replaced the batteries yet.

Last year I bought a GMC 3/4 ton truck and Arctic Fox 22G. This was a major upgrade but also a major improvement in livable space for my wife and I. We have camped 27 nights in it so far and it has been great. We have only used a generator about 10 of the hottest days last year to run the air conditioner for 3-4 hours in the hot afternoons. Been cooler on this years trips and we never used the generator.

I bought four 100 amp-hour LiFePO4 BattleBorn batteries because I wanted to efficiently use the solar energy from the 985 watts I put on my trailer and truck. These batteries charge much faster and less energy goes to heat in the later parts of the charging cycle. They also work very well with my 2200 watt pure sine wave inverter. I bought two smaller 50 amp-hour batteries to power my astronomy equipment overnight when imaging stars. They only weigh 17 pounds and are easy to move around.

I know a lot of people think it may be crazy to spend almost $4000 on batteries for the trailer but the quality of the power and silence from the lack of generator usage makes it worth our while. The 10 year warranty and quality BMS make me confident that the batteries would give me a decade plus of hassle free service. I run the toaster and microwave at breakfast using the inverter. I like knowing I don't need to use the generator except in the hottest locations which we try to avoid. My trailer cost about $30,000 and the power improvements of solar, controllers, inverter, wiring and batteries added about another $10,000. The truck was the biggest expense of all but I wanted a save tow vehicle that could handle a 1000+ plus pounds of truck cap, people and astronomy gear under the cap in the bed while being able to handle the ball weight and tow a 7500 pound trailer.

A generator can keep a lead acid battery charged in off grid use but adding a modest amount of solar would allow you to run the generator for fewer hours. You could run the generator after the deeper discharges and let the solar finish off the last 20% of the charge cycle in silence. Running the generator while making breakfast and let the sun finish the charge cycle. If you want to use the generator to charge the batteries you may want to consider a better smart charger that can deliver a 20 percent charging current to lead acid or 50 percent charging current to LiFePO4 batteries.
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Old 07-26-2019, 07:51 AM   #6
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Thanks everyone. I enjoy the weather of the Rockies in September and will travel to stay in those temperatures.

The important things I need while boondocking are allot of water (GF's long hair), hot shower, stove fridge and microwave. I don't need heat and if the forecast says I might need AC, I'll drive north.

From my research, my 2000i which is far from efficient because of its inverter to reduce the noise, is a gas hog at 0.28 GPH at full load. It would burn less than 1 gallon a day because I usually only ran it a couple hours a day at low load or 0.11 GPH (because my charger was limited to 8 amps), or 30 gallons of gas per month. And propane usage would be no more than 40 lbs of propane per month in the summer. If anyone disagrees with this, please let me know.
So that's no more than $120 for gas and $160 for propane or $280 per month which is worst case scenario. Maybe it will be half that, but lets use $280..
How much would a solar system cost that completely replaces the need for propane and gas? All electric. Take that cost and divide it by 280 should tell me how long, if ever, it would take to break even..
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrocamper View Post
The power improvements of solar, controllers, inverter, wiring and batteries added about another $10,000.

Thanks for all that valuable information astrocamper!
If I buy the same solar system you have, it would take about 3 1/2 years to break even saving 280 a month. Hard to know if I will full time that long, but can I really run a good size compressor fridge, electric water heater, electric stove and microwave from that 10K system and not have to do anything except monitor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP View Post
So before you get too far down this road consider what the mission is - to see/do whatever it is while you're boondocking, or to play power engineer and be playing with the systems to run your stuff. I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket unless my goal was to operate a solar powered rig.
Mark B.
Playing power engineer is not what I want to do. I want to spend time exploring the area and taking it in. So ground solar panels are out on those days because they would be stolen. But there would be days we just lounge around the camp site. I guess the panels need to be on the roof which might keep us out of the toyhauler during the afternoon.
Anyway, solar is starting to look more attractive especially if LiFePO4 battery prices fall. Ive read used LiFePO4 batteries retired from the medical industry might be a good way to save money. That said, there were a few times I forgot the 2000i was running.


Decisions decisions..
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:28 AM   #7
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Not so much about the money. It's about comfort and convenience. I would suggest a 2 pronged solution.

1-Solar. 4 or 6 100w panels, 4 or g good golf cart batteries with a simple watering system and a good controller. This will run everything you need except AC. Microwave in moderation, coffee maker lights, laptop, fans ect. You can literally ignore this system for 10 years other than to squeeze the bulb on the waterer monthly and don't draw the batteries down too far. It will supply plenty of power even on cloudy days and have the storage to get through rainy days. Partial shade will be OK.

2-Any small generator to run a charger in case it is needed. The small Hondas are quiet. You need to carry gas though. If you need a heater then make it a propane generator and run a propane heater. You will only need a small generator for charging and you won't need to charge unless you need lost of power or have a rainy week.
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:41 AM   #8
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Solar will rarely, if ever pay for itself and in an RV setting, unless you have a massive array still needs a back up.

I currently have 640w on mine with a large battery bank and 3000w inverter. I can run everything in my RV with the exception of the AC's without using the generator.

We just got back from a 5 week trip. The last 3 weeks we did not run the generator other than to use the AC. The first 2 weeks on several rainy, overcast days there was not going to be enough solar to fully recharge the battiest if I used high draw loads like the microwave and toaster oven. During those days I ran the generator (built in) for about 45 min in the morning making breakfast and the same in the evening making dinner. This allowed us to cook without using battery reserve and to charge the batteries.

Even not using solar I could keep my batteries charged up running the generator for less then 3hr/day. With my unit that would use less than 2 gallons of fuel a day.

What solar does it provide quiet power. The generator is not loud, but when you turn it off you notice how much quieter things are. Solar allows you to "extend" a battery bank size since on a good day (with a properly sized system) you are making more power than using. In my case with TV's on, some lights, vent fan(s), laptop plugged in, general daily stuff I am drawing about 12 amps (DC). Under ideal conditions my system is listed as making 35 amps, I have seen as high as 39. Even on overcast days I typically get amps in the high teens.

For me the pay off is needing to worry less about power consumption and getting quiet power.
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Old 07-26-2019, 12:23 PM   #9
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How much would a solar system cost that completely replaces the need for propane and gas? All electric.
I'm not sure you can get there from here "completely". That would mean a system sized for worst case conditions which can be 2x-3x more than "usual". Maybe that's something you're OK with, in which case you can do whatever you can afford. The more reasoned approach would be to come up with a typical use model, size a system to that then make operating accommodations as you go. Personally, I would rather carry a 60lb genset and use it once or twice a week than carry around an extra 250lbs of batteries. My RV has some solar but I don't really count it for anything because most everywhere I camped the time it sees more shade than sun, and I don't want to bake the RV for a few Ah nor do I want to keep moving it around all day. My point being and what is echoed by others is the right answer is a hybrid system, maybe heavy on the solar if that's what you want but I don't think it's realistic to be off grid for that period of time and never need a genset. Could even be an inverter running off of the tow vehicle which is what I did for a few years with my popup but you're going to want something for when you come up short on charge and need something to get you to the next sunny day.

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Old 07-29-2019, 03:07 PM   #10
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This is a difficult question to answer without knowing all of your existing costs and operating parameters.

We are full-timers, and have full time Information Technology jobs that allows us to work remotely.

In an effort to not have to spend $ in RV parks, and $ on fuel for generators running 12hrs a day, we installed 12x180w panels, 2x5000kva inverters, and 600ah LiFePo4 batteries in our 42' 5th wheel.

This allows us to live almost a normal bricks & sticks lifestyle in our RV. The generator is setup for auto-start should the solar collection drop off too low to keep up and if the batteries need topped off.

Unfortunately, this size of system still doesn't save us much in terms of propane consumption, as we still have to use propane to cook with, to heat water for showers and laundry, and to operate the furnace and refrigerator. It also doesn't really allow us to operate A/C for cooling in the summer either. There is simply just too much demand for the panels to keep up as the amount of solar required to operate the A/C, water heater and refrigerator goes WAY beyond can be gathered with the 12x180w panels.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:17 PM   #11
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Ive seen some excited about some savings after spending $ 8 to $12,000.
But forget to deduct the cost of
Depreciation monthly.

Then 3 to 6 years latter they need to spend $2 to $3,000 + on batteries and or new updated electronics it can hurt.
The positive side of actual total savings.
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:25 PM   #12
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It’s not about the money, it’s about quality of life and when it does come down to costs you need to think long term.

By quality of life I mean do you really want to crank a generator every time you want ac power for a hair dryer, to microwave something, or watch the news? No you don’t, that’s why God created inverters.

Part 2 is how will you maintain your batteries? It’s all well and good for short term vacationers to abuse and undercharge their batteries for a short while and then return home to top them off. But that won’t cut it full timing. You need to get your batteries to 100% on a frequent basis or severely shorten their life. Do you want to run a generator 8 extra hours at minimal load, burning gas while the batteries soak up that last ten percent of absorption? No, that’s what solar is for. An hour or two of bulk charge in the AM from either generator or a big solar system, followed by absorption all day long from solar while you’re out having fun.

As an alternative you can hit a park with power every couple of weeks and top charge your batteries. Which for some people fits their needs well.

By long term costs, I mean that solar charging will in the long term save you money in longer battery life, less fuel use, and less generator maintenance. Spending ten months a year on the road boondocking I wouldn’t be without solar. For vacationers it wouldn’t make sense. If you like RV parks it doesn’t make sense.
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Old 07-29-2019, 05:37 PM   #13
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It's hard to actually define the cost's. If you are going to be dry camping, you'll need a large battery bank as running the generator 24/7 isn't a good option for most. For the most part, the cost of your battery bank is going to be about the same either way so I personally don't consider the battery bank to be part of my solar costs.


I don't find solar to be reliable enough the way we use it to where I would go without having a generator, so I consider that to be a fixed cost either way as well.


In figuring the actual cost of solar, I look strictly at the cost of the solar install itself. For me, 1000 watts of solar panels came out at $850, $250 for two controllers, and figure another $300 for wiring, brackets, switches, fuses etc. My bighorn is a power hog, and not really set up well to not have AC power so I consider the Inverter to be a necessity so I don't include the cost of it into my solar costs either.



For me, the solar cost approximately $1400 and the Predator 3500 inverter generator added another $650 which gives me pretty good boondocking power capability for off grid. Using 4 GC batteries I can go weeks at a time more often than not without needing to use the generator at all, and still be able to watch satellite TV, use my AC powered recliners, use the light and fan above the stove which are part of the microwave, use the drip filter coffee pot in the morning, have the wife use her hair dryer in the morning, run my CPAP through the night etc. For the most part we can do this even on rainy days, or if we're in fairly shaded spots. Rainy days when we're in heavy shade on the other hand generally require generator use, or for us to use power saving techniques like the percolator for coffee, limited to no TV, no hair dryer, no microwave popcorn etc.


How much this saves us in fuel costs for the generator I've never really tried to figure out. What I can for sure say is that the solar just works automatically without any input from us, which means we just live life normal, take off when we want etc. without having to worry about generator run times if and when they apply. Time and convenience are hard to quantify from a cost perspective, but from the perspective of enjoying life, they are quite valuable.
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Old 07-29-2019, 05:52 PM   #14
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That's great advice.

Solar and genset and hook ups when you can. Will cover just about everything but cost of all the stuff, panels, controller, batteries, inverter, converter, fuel for genset and Maintenance costs. I am new to all this. Moved from the Olympic Coast to Arizona. Plenty of sun but not where I intend to camp. We'll winter here in Wellton on the grid. Hope to travel in the summer. Look forward to the discussions
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