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Old 07-01-2017, 07:31 AM   #1
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LiFeP04 Drop In Batteries

I am exploring adding panels and perhaps replacing my 4 x 6v 215 ah coach batteries. My rig--2017 Tiffin Breeze--has a residential refrigerator and a diesel generator. I am disappointed at how often and much I have to run the generator when boondocking.

In addition to solar solutions, I have been looking in to lithium batteries. I came across this very positive thread in an Airstream forum about Battle Born batteries.

The drop in 12v footprint is very appealing. I know that I will likely need to tweak or upgrade my charger/inverter in order to be able to charge these batteries. They are not cheap--except in the long run. Weight saving is also significant. I may be able to get buy with 3 batteries because of the ability of these batteries to discharge very deep.

I thought I would pass along the links for those considering LiFePO4. I have no affiliation with any product.

https://battlebornbatteries.com

Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries - Page 5 - Airstream Forums

Cheers,
Dasadab
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Old 07-01-2017, 07:44 AM   #2
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I would be interested in the results. Not interested enough to spend 3 to 4 grand for an extra 2 hours of battery run time.

As an aside, the residential refrigerators were supposed to be more efficient than Norcold. And recharging using generator power (unless running the genny full time) never gets you back to 100% charge.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:10 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dasadab View Post
I am exploring adding panels and perhaps replacing my 4 x 6v 215 ah coach batteries. My rig--2017 Tiffin Breeze--has a residential refrigerator and a diesel generator. I am disappointed at how often and much I have to run the generator when boondocking.

In addition to solar solutions, I have been looking in to lithium batteries. I came across this very positive thread in an Airstream forum about Battle Born batteries.

The drop in 12v footprint is very appealing. I know that I will likely need to tweak or upgrade my charger/inverter in order to be able to charge these batteries. They are not cheap--except in the long run. Weight saving is also significant. I may be able to get buy with 3 batteries because of the ability of these batteries to discharge very deep.

I thought I would pass along the links for those considering LiFePO4. I have no affiliation with any product.

https://battlebornbatteries.com

Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries - Page 5 - Airstream Forums

Cheers,
Dasadab
Feel free to look at my thread in the Fleetwood forum:
Fleetwood Owners Forum - Lithium/Solar Install on '16 Bounder
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:18 AM   #4
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Changing type of battery, without changing capacity, isn't going to shorten your generator run time.

Yes, you can run the lithium batteries down deeper, but now you need longer generator time to recharge them, unless you do a serious charger upgrade.

Solar will help cut generator run time. With a properly designed solar array, during solar charging, the fridge is not using any battery capacity and the exess is charging the batteries back up.

IMHO, if you are designing a solar system, a starting point would be minimum of 600 watts.

I have 300 watts, but run a gas fridge. It gives us TV and coffee maker use and is great for the 5 months it's stored.

The word on the street is " Put as much solar as you can fit and afford " up there.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:34 AM   #5
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It's my understanding that LIPO batteries charge much quicker than do lead acid. If true, one could use a smaller solar array.

Battle Born (Nevada State Motto) are assembled in Reno, just over the hill from where we live. Now, if only the price would come down. Remember when the cost of solar panels made them cost prohibitive? Now we are down to $1/watt.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:55 AM   #6
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Batteries are like a water tank. If you use so much water you need to replace that water. You can't fill faster with a smaller hose. Price is the biggest problem. I'm looking closer at the New 12 volt DEEP CYCLE batteries about a 1/3 more amp hours per pair at a much better price.

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Old 07-01-2017, 11:16 AM   #7
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It's my understanding that LIPO batteries charge much quicker than do lead acid. If true, one could use a smaller solar array.

Battle Born (Nevada State Motto) are assembled in Reno, just over the hill from where we live. Now, if only the price would come down. Remember when the cost of solar panels made them cost prohibitive? Now we are down to $1/watt.
Lithium batteries accept a higher charging current then lead acid. That will make them charge faster, but you need a larger charging source to do that, whether it's 120 volt or sun powered.

Its 100% current out and about 115% current back, in any battery.

If you use 200 AH, you need to replace 200 AH. You can replace it at 10 amps per hour with a 10 amp charger for 23 hours or 200 amps per hour in 1.1 hours, with a 200 amp charger. The issue with 200 amps per hour is damaging, battery heat buildup.
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:29 AM   #8
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The lithium batteries, as I understand it, can take significantly more amps when charging. They also bulk charge right up to 100% instead of only 85% or so.

Make the hose bigger. A bigger converter/charge controller will deliver more amps to the lithium battery bank. Say you can charge twice as fast and bulk charge right up to 100% capacity. You could certainly reduce generator run times. Add enough solar and you could easily eliminate generator runs save for cloudy days, etc.

As for Battle Born, I've heard good things about them. But do their batteries have a real world track record? I don't think so. They haven't been around long enough to have all that many RV installations yet, especially with several years of experience.

For our part, we're leaning towards flooded cells for the time being while building a solar system. Once we've got the solar panels, hopefully lithium pricing will come down and make the decision a no brainer.
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:33 AM   #9
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Or 40a for 5 hrs, typical 'solar' hours in a day. 800w solar, nice sized system. LIPO battery 100% charged. How long would it take to go from 80% (lead acid) bulk charge to 100% on float? That was my point.

Or, anecdotally, remember your first cordless drill? Nicads, how long did it take them to charge? and how many holes could you drill between charges. And, the battery was always dead when you started to drill that first hole. Then the DW bought you that nice, new, drill with the new-fangled batteries-LIPO or whatever. Technology marches on.
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:04 PM   #10
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Forum poster BatteryPro (Larry) and his wife Debbie run Starlight Solar out of Yuma. (Revers Snowbirds. Work in the winter, RV in the Yuma summers...).

Larry is a straight shooter, and since you're thinking the big three of electrical makeover (Solar, Batteries, Charger/Inverter) - working with someone as interested in putting together a package of components that work, as much as they are a profit, might be with considering. And nothing wrong with that word 'profit'. Sure, in this day an age of instant price comparison shopping over the internet - lower prices on some items maybe found. But the expertise to put the right components together, properly install them - and then maybe more important than anything, after installation support - is worth paying a bit more then rock bottom price for the components.

OP - You may enjoy all of this, and want to design and then install your own system. Go for it... But if looking for help, even coming up with a 'custom component kit' that you install yourself, could be worth checking in with Larry.

As I recall when I first contacted Larry during the hot months - he was somewhere in either Utah or Montana - monitoring Emails. So if you email or call and leave a message, be patient a bit!

Best to you,
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:43 PM   #11
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Thanks a lot. Would love to find a pro-installer within 200 miles or so of L.A.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:49 PM   #12
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Unfortunately, Larry doesn't reopen until December.
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Old 07-02-2017, 07:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
Changing type of battery, without changing capacity, isn't going to shorten your generator run time.

Yes, you can run the lithium batteries down deeper, but now you need longer generator time to recharge them, unless you do a serious charger upgrade.

Solar will help cut generator run time. With a properly designed solar array, during solar charging, the fridge is not using any battery capacity and the exess is charging the batteries back up.

IMHO, if you are designing a solar system, a starting point would be minimum of 600 watts.

I have 300 watts, but run a gas fridge. It gives us TV and coffee maker use and is great for the 5 months it's stored.

The word on the street is " Put as much solar as you can fit and afford " up there.


I'm going to disagree with this assessment. The fact that a lithium battery can be charged at a full 1C rate and will accept current at that rate from the start to the finish of the charging cycle changes the generator runtime characteristics significantly. Unlike a lead acid battery where the maximum charge rate is usually about C/5 to C/10, AND the charging characteristics of the battery causes the charge rate to drop as the battery fills up, a lithium battery can be charged at the maximum rate throughout the process. This yields a shorter charge time even without an increase in size for the solar or other charging equipment, given an equivalent amp-hour requirement for the battery.
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:03 PM   #14
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I just copied this from the Battle Born site:

"The length of time it takes to charge a li-ion deep cycle battery depends on the type and size of your charging source. Typically, you can only charge lead acid batteries below 20% of their actual capacity, this is not true with li-ion. You can charge a Battle Born battery up to 5 times faster, although we only recommend that you charge at 50% of the capacity to extend the life of your battery. Keep in mind that you can charge a 100% the capacity of the battery, this will shorten the cycle life (our measurements indicate this would result in 2000 cycles with 80% capacity remaining) but the battery and the BMS can handle it."

Being electrically challenged, I am reading this to mean that I can charge a 100ah lifepo4 battery at 100 amps, but charging at 50 amps is going to result in a longer lasting battery. Correct?

If so, in order to quickly charge a 400 ah battery bank, 200 amps going to the batteries would be ideal. I am thinking of upgrading my charger/inverter from a TrippLite 1250 to a Magnum MS2012. The TrippLite lists charging capacity as 55amps. 55amps seems pretty meager if the currently installed lead/acid batteries can only be charged at C5. Meaning that 100 ah lead acid battery can only be charged at 20 amps (1/5th of 100amps). The Magnum lists a charging capacity of 100adc. I think that this means that the Magnum will charge the lifepo4 bank at 100amps. So, basically, if I am down to 100ah capacity (having used 300ah), I will need three hours at 100amps to get the bank back to full charge. With a lead/acid bank of 400amps, I can charge to a max of 80 amps. Realistically, therefore, unless my charger can take advantage of the higher charger rate of lifepo4 batteries, the higher charging capacity of the lifepo4 batteries is not quite the advantage that I at first thought in might be. Does this sound correct? I think that the fact that the lifepo4 batteries can be charged to %100 is also an advantage. I think I read somewhere that lead/acid batteries have to be charged slowly once they reach something like %85. But I am not sure.

My generator is a Onan QD 6000, which I think is more than capable of providing the 100amps to the charger?

So, one strategy would seem to be able charge lifepo4 batteries by augmenting solar with generator time. I could then get closer to using the ability of lifepo4 batteries to charge at %50. It seems that I would need a lot of solar to do much good---1000watts would yield, ideally about 83 amps, but this seems unobtainable in the real world.

I might be talking myself into forgetting the solar for now and looking for a charger than can handle up to 200amps--but I really don't know if I am going to be requiring crazy wiring size and other unforeseen complications. I am a complete rookie with this stuff.

Thanks for reading to my musings.

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