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Old 01-12-2013, 12:20 PM   #15
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The Vesta is what is known (and other Navistar RV models) as completely vertically integrated. Engine, chassis and coach body are all Navistar products.

This in my opinion this makes for a good outcome in engineering with the ability to control cost from the onset. This is better than any other RV manufacturer out there because none of them can state that they are fully integrated.

Luxury Navistar RV coaches will stray from that model since they will be buying Cummins engines for select brands.
The thing that is bothering me is that they failed to mention the MF 7 in the conference. Does anyone know the status of the engine? This was the question I submitted for the call. The invitation to the call said that all the questions that were not addressed in the conference would be responded to via email. I'm still waiting.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #16
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The thing that is bothering me is that they failed to mention the MF 7 in the conference. Does anyone know the status of the engine? This was the question I submitted for the call. The invitation to the call said that all the questions that were not addressed in the conference would be responded to via email. I'm still waiting.
Dave, I'm only guessing here but absent a Vesta and a Trip Navistar (Osborne) didn't have to include it in the teleconference.

Tiffin is very pleased with the MaxxForce7 on their 2013 Breeze. The MF7 is also the main power plant for the school bus fleet I believe as well so whatever they lost with V & T in won't matter much in the over all engine count.

You can expect support for the MF7 for quite some time if that is your concern.

They don't have a huge staff to work this case so give it a few days or a week.
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:02 PM   #17
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Hope you're right DriVer.
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #18
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Hope you're right DriVer.
Hey Dave ... Need to get you an Avatar.
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:24 PM   #19
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Hey Dave ... Need to get you an Avatar.
Why would I need one of those , I have a Vesta. A darn nice one at that!!
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:16 PM   #20
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Why would I need one of those , I have a Vesta. A darn nice one at that!!
Of course you do. I was just talking about installing a small picture under your name. (left margin) I'm sure you have a front shot of your rig somewhere. I think it would look nice.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:31 PM   #21
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I guess I'm not making myself clear, this is unlike the big 3 automakers. Yes, Ford used International motors in their trucks and Chrysler uses Cummins etc. Why is it different? It's different because the big 3 make cars and trucks with gas engines. That's their core business. None of the big 3 products have been deemed illegal that I'm aware of.
For Navistar to recover from this mess will take extraordinary management and leadership. Thus far it looks like a rocky road to me. Believe me, as a current owner a successful turnaround would be great.
Dave I'm not sure where you get the idea that there engines we're illegal, yes some did not meet emissions and they we're using prior credits from pre 2010 engines that we're totally compliant and having to pay a fine. But all of that was legal and still is.


Cummins did the same thing before 2010 with some of there engines.

As for the RV Division, the fact there continuing to move forward with developement and design, tells me that yes it may be for sale, but they definitely have no plans on closing the RV Divisions. I get the impression yes they will sell it, but they won't give it away or close it.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:17 PM   #22
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Dave I'm not sure where you get the idea that there engines we're illegal, yes some did not meet emissions and they we're using prior credits from pre 2010 engines that we're totally compliant and having to pay a fine. But all of that was legal and still is.

Cummins did the same thing before 2010 with some of there engines.

As for the RV Division, the fact there continuing to move forward with developement and design, tells me that yes it may be for sale, but they definitely have no plans on closing the RV Divisions. I get the impression yes they will sell it, but they won't give it away or close it.
Maybe I've been in artful in what I said earlier. Let me put it this way. How many MF 13 or 15 are on the road sold in 2013? My understanding is that these motors with AEGR did not meet emission standards and Navistar could no longer use credits. Are those engines illegal?
Why on earth would an engine company contract with Cummins for big block engines with SCR systems if they didn't have to.
AEGR failed so Navistar is busily retrofitting their big block motors with DEF based systems like rest of the industry. When that is done I'm pretty sure these engines will be "legal".
The point was that this self inflicted failure caused huge losses and it will be a long hard road before they are profitable again.
So, what effect does all this have on the RV division? Resources are spread thin for one thing and the RV division may or may not fit into their long range plans.
NavistarRv is now complaining that competitors are unfairly telling people that NavistarRV is going out of business. The fact that this was prominently mentioned in the conference call tells me that they feel that this kind of talk is hurting sales. While this is not exactly true, that they are looking to sell the operation is true. Either way, I think this stance is weak and will not be positively received in the marketplace.
You are correct that anything on the road today is compliant and legal.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:16 PM   #23
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Maybe I've been in artful in what I said earlier. Let me put it this way. How many MF 13 or 15 are on the road sold in 2013? My understanding is that these motors with AEGR did not meet emission standards and Navistar could no longer use credits. Are those engines illegal?
VestaDave, I would like the opportunity to contribute if I may. It would not be within anyone's ability here to put a number on how many MaxxForce engine have been sold in 2013. Any engines that are in the queue today that have been manufactured can be delivered legally. Going forward and perhaps as soon as April, certain (perhaps most) MaxxForce engines will be delivered with Cummins SCR systems installed.

Every engine that MaxxForce has manufactured today, that is currently on the road installed in a vehicle, is street/highway legal. Engines that are branded MaxxForce will not be able to meet the GHG14 specification using AEGR alone therefore there aren't enough credits to allow the Navistar to manufacture and place those engines on the road in International or Navistar RV vehicles.

At the time that GHG14 is implemented, all MaxxForce engines as far as I know, will be fitted with SCR and no credits will be required to meet the emission specification.

The only reason why Navistar has credits is that they were able to bank a bunch of them during the 2007 emission run. They just knocked that technology out of the park I understand. In time however they will run out especially when GHG14 cuts in.

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Why on earth would an engine company contract with Cummins for big block engines with SCR systems if they didn't have to.
Cummins is supplying the International truck division with the ISX Cummins engine. The ISX is only used in the greatest GVWR/GCWR OTR tractors plus it will be used in the luxury line of Navistar RVs. The MaxxForce 15 (CAT15 block) which it replaces apparently could not be made (economically) compliant therefore they went with the ISX because it does right out of the crate PLUS truckers have confidence and love the engine. Navistar needs to primarily sell trucks and not so much engines.

Navistar and MaxxForce will continue to produce a number of diesel engines from the MF7, MF9, MFDT, MF10, MF11, MF13, MF-Military and perhaps others. These engines power the majority of Navistar trucks, busses and RVs.

Quote:
AEGR failed so Navistar is busily retrofitting their big block motors with DEF based systems like rest of the industry. When that is done I'm pretty sure these engines will be "legal".
The engines that Navistar will make going forward will have combination technology where some AEGR will be retained and SCR will be added. It is expected that MaxxForce engines equipped with SCR will be fluid misers in that they may not need to use as much DEF in the ATD as a Cummins engine ... BUT we'll have to wait on those claims to see if that's true.

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So, what effect does all this have on the RV division? Resources are spread thin for one thing and the RV division may or may not fit into their long range plans.
I will not disagree or add anything to this thought because I believe it to be true. If the right suitor and the right price comes along Navistar may decide that it's in the best interests of the company to sell.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:49 PM   #24
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DriVer, thanks for the clarifications and analysis. It is a complicated situation and, to paraphrase " it's a fine kettle of fish they've gotten themselves into this time".
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:08 PM   #25
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Very well put Driver, you said it way better, than I ever could
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:34 PM   #26
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Very well put Driver, you said it way better, than I ever could
I missed the call, but submitted a question concerning the future of the Trip & Vesta. Did he mention the future of the models or am I an owner of another orphan.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:03 PM   #27
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I missed the call, but submitted a question concerning the future of the Trip & Vesta. Did he mention the future of the models or am I an owner of another orphan.
I wrote in my comments that Navistar is no longer going to produce Vesta & Trip. You can expect support for your motorhome for the term of your warranty.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:13 PM   #28
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I wrote in my comments that Navistar is no longer going to produce Vesta & Trip. You can expect support for your motorhome for the term of your warranty.
Since my Trip is out of warranty I own an orphan.
I can't win after Safari and a Beaver. Thanks for the info.
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